Contempt for Grammar Schools

[PencilMom]

Yesterday’s thread regarding the exclusion of private schooled children from state grammar schools has really highlighted that many people dislike grammar schools (and even more so private schools and the parents who can afford it).

AIBU for completely not understanding where the contempt stems from? There is dislike of the parents who explore this as an option for their children (many are characterised as elitist), the parents who can afford tutoring (which in many cases focuses on becoming accustomed to the test format), the children who go to grammars, I have even seen teachers accused of choosing the easy route.
There is not nearly as much dislike of sporting schools, creative arts or technical schools. If there is a school which caters to a child’s particular strengths or interests, why is that considered bad. Where possible all counties/cities should have a varied range of focused schools.

Please explain why you are opposed to or support grammar schools?
(I totally understand that the 11+ / selective tests has a negative undertone for those who “fail” — but is that not on the parents/primary schools to positively frame the experience regardless of their child’s score).

Good luck with that.

The majority are tutored and tutored all the way through though. It's rich people fleecing the state sector so their kids can be intellectually segregated from the riffraff.

It's not about the kid or the community, it's about the parent's social standing. Champagne socialism with a nod to their kid having some divine "natural talent" which is of course actually privilege.

It’s a do or die as the local secondary alternative is often shit

Spot on. There is a huge amount of tutoring that continues right through to A level

...because the middle-class kids have all gamed the system and disappeared into a nice little elitist ghetto.

As I said, they get less attention. They aren't pushed beyond the work that is set for them, so they get bored and lose interest. They still do well, yes. But they might do even better in an environment that is focused on maximising their potential.

This is the issue. I really think education in the UK will only improve across the board if the economy grows. I think the focus on private/grammar etc as the bad guys is a distraction

We need prosperity so we can invest in our schools, so parents can afford to slow down and support their kids and so kids can grow up in calm and not chaos which spills over into schools. A strong economy will do that

Money that should be spent on education currently is needed for the NHS and social care (ageing population), benefits to top up low wages and potential warfare at our doorstep etc. The pot needs to grow so we can prioritise our kids and give them the education they deserve

But they don't - you can keep saying it but it doesn't make it so. It's the money they come from and the fact they don't have SEN.

Pupil’s results are no better in grammar schools
Another study of more than 500,000 pupils in England by researchers at Durham University found that “results from grammar schools are no better than expected” once social stratification (such as poverty, ethnicity, language, special educational needs) is taken into account. Read an article summarising the results HERE and the full academic paper HERE.

But all the evidence suggests they don't. Academic studies show that grammar schools don't give anywhere near the level of advantage people think they do, and many students in them do worse than they would at comprehensives, taking into account the sort of people they are and their background.

I have absolutely no problem with private education - if you want to pay for your kid to go to an expensive school, go ahead, knock yourself out. It doesn't affect me, and it's your money, so you can do what you like with it.

I have a serious problem, though, with state-funded grammar schools because they are so patently unfair, and don't actually even work the way they're supposed to.

Exactly this. Using the state sector to create an intellectual bubble for rich kids that overloads the remaining state schools with SEN and FSM pupils should not be possible. Everyone complains about the NHS postcode lottery but if areas are being conned out of resources because rich parents figure they can abuse the system to avoid school fees at the detriment of everyone else's schools, we have a problem.

Abso-bloody-lutely.

The prized calm environment of grammar schools comes about because if you have any problems whatsoever that might disturb that - tough shit, you're not coming in. The schools left to pick up the pieces are given less funding than grammars, and have less engaged parents as well, so it's no wonder they struggle.

That fails disadvantaged families FAR more than a 100% comprehensive system.

Right, but, for example, say Local Grammar School only takes children who score an "A" in the 11+. If your untutored child gets a "B", they were not going to get a place in the school, regardless of how many rich people had their children tutored.

The tutored children who score an "A" will be up against the untutored children who also got an "A" for admission. The school then applies its other admission criteria. Here they give points for living in the area, having siblings at the school, qualifying for FSM, being the child of a former pupil, being the first in the family to go to a grammar etc. You have more chance of getting in as a poorer child than a rich one.

Have you seen the stats for FSM pupils at grammars?

You're talking nonsense. Grammars get to cherry-pick the easy kids, and leave all the struggling ones to "lesser" schools to deal with. And that's done with taxpayer's money!

I actually think that's an obscenity.

Some of those seem to work against each other @HollyKnight eg having sibling in the school, being first in family to attend grammar

You might want to read the thread - we covered why it's overwhelmingly full of wealthy parents and barely any FSM further up.
Hint : It's rigged against the poorest.

Rich kids do well wherever they go and frankly as a society we need them to be more aware of the lives of kids on FSM, especially if they are to run the country.

As I said previously, there are a lot of children going to grammar schools that don't suit them. But they do suit a lot of children.

It's nonsense anyway. You have to be in the top x% to get in, and that involves competing with other kids, so if the standards one year are particularly high, you might need a higher score. It's the only thing that matters, grammars don't care about anything else at all.

No. They don't.

There's loads of evidence to support this.

"Suiting" as in, they are away from the riffraff?
They do well regardless of their school. They are children of rich parents and the odds are stacked in their favour.

The only thing suiting them is that their parents don't have to worry about them making friends with the hoi polloi.

I don't believe grammar schools get more state funding than comprehensive schools. Please share a link that says they do

Exactly, that's all it is - it's snobbish parents who want to keep their kids away from the oiks, and do it on the cheap. They'll dress it up with all sorts of fancy justifications, but they essentially want to send their kids to schools that will exclude around 90% of people, and have it all funded by the state.

Like I said, you want that exclusivity, you can bloody well pay for it yourself.

Is that because a lot of FSM children are from backgrounds that don't traditionally go to university? Like I said earlier today, no one in my community or family went to university. That was for "fancy" people. Everyone did the 11+ but no one cared about the result because that wasn't our path in life. Everyone went to school and then got a trade or a job. There are many reasons why the poorest children aren't at grammar schools. It's not because the wealthy take all the spots.

@HollyKnight - "It's not because the wealthy take all the spots."

Yes, it is.

Not sure who you think said that.
IIRC they get around £7/8k per pupil per year.
For an elite bubble of selective education on the taxpayers dime.