Contempt for Grammar Schools

[PencilMom]

Yesterday’s thread regarding the exclusion of private schooled children from state grammar schools has really highlighted that many people dislike grammar schools (and even more so private schools and the parents who can afford it).

AIBU for completely not understanding where the contempt stems from? There is dislike of the parents who explore this as an option for their children (many are characterised as elitist), the parents who can afford tutoring (which in many cases focuses on becoming accustomed to the test format), the children who go to grammars, I have even seen teachers accused of choosing the easy route.
There is not nearly as much dislike of sporting schools, creative arts or technical schools. If there is a school which caters to a child’s particular strengths or interests, why is that considered bad. Where possible all counties/cities should have a varied range of focused schools.

Please explain why you are opposed to or support grammar schools?
(I totally understand that the 11+ / selective tests has a negative undertone for those who “fail” — but is that not on the parents/primary schools to positively frame the experience regardless of their child’s score).

We live in a grammar area.

I have 3 DCs and none are at the grammars, they are at the local comp for these personal reasons:

• it’s a 15 min bus journey and having had the nightmare of travelling across London to their ‘assigned’ school we chose this as a big win for us when we moved just pre-Covid (bullying, stress, anxiety, meltdowns).
• They wouldn’t have got on with the atmosphere of the grammar
• The grammars have much less choice in other subjects as they have to plough all their money in to results for academic subjects.
• most of the grammars are single sex- not keen.

These political reasons:

• Less diversity in background and minorities at grammars. I want my kids to be in a diverse society

The comprehensive has great teachers and great facilities in arts, music, and more vocational subjects for a wide range of subjects (rural school, they have a farm!)

But: it’s noticeable that just as the grammar takes up the most academic and ambitious kids so do the comps in that area reap the disadvantages of an unbalanced school community with a lot of unmotivated kids. It’s sometimes been hard for my bright DCs to feel that learning and striving for the best is acceptable or cool. Low level disruption from kids who aren’t interested is chronic. This is nothing on their previous inner city school where shit gets real at secondary and some of their peers will be dealing with severe deprivation, but it’s pernicious nonetheless.

@Overthemenopause ". Again the local grammar schools have many students competing national in a variety of sports and their students also perform in many arts opportunities like county orchestras and dance shows"

That is what the children of the middle classes do. Of course grammar school students are well represented.

Yes agree taking off the top achievers leaves less chance of kids in the non grammar schools to be motivated by their peers. Inter peer learning is one of the most effective ways to learn. If there's only a few A* pupils in a year group it's harder for that to be seen as normal, they become "weird" which perpetuates the whole group psychology of wanting to fit in by not sticking out or excelling.

Less diversity in background and minorities at grammars. I want my kids to be in a diverse society

Curious to know @Catgotyourbrain what you mean by “less diversity”? Because my daughter’s grammar is so diverse, White British kids are a minority, and I don’t think that’s unusual across virtually all grammar schools.

Just interested to know whether your statement was based on knowledge of a particular school, or an assumption that they are majority white (or option 3, which is the argument that grammar schools are “too South Asian”).

I live in a grammar school area . My three all went to grammar. They were only tutored for a few months to learn the exam format. The other schools in our area are all actually really good. Not one school to avoid.
Good schools are more a reflection on the support that parents give their children and the schools they attend .
Also the layout of all the schools in our town mean that the children all get to know and make friends with children from all 5 schools etc .
My children are all adults now and some of their closest friends went to a mixture of all the schools.
Definitely not a division whatsoever.

I'm glad you confirmed that, I also found it strange that she is sent on errands. Her teacher said it was very common but I found it concerning.
And yes, she is often placed next to a struggling child and asked to help them with their work, so she is in a way also teaching.

And I do wonder whether grammar will be the best fit for her, she is very self motivated but sometimes struggles under pressure, and I understand many grammar schools are quite pressured environments. So it's good to here your very bright children are thriving in a comprehensive. Is that in an area with grammar schools?

I disagree completely with your first sentence.

I went to grammar, I have 4 DC, 1 attends grammar and the other 3 have attended comprehensive. They are getting the education suited to their needs.

@Catgotyourbrain my dc at one gets exposure to all that.
Including sen and a wide range of ethnic backgrounds.
It's got brilliant art and production departments as well.

@Jellycats4life There are many types of diversity-not just race and skin colour. Personally, I want my children to mix with a wide variety of other children-race,creed, colour, interests, social class, economic background....

I've been a very naive. We live in a nice, non grammar area with several highly-ranked primaries and trusted that the local state secondary school - which I rarely had need to go past at leaving time, till recently - was genuinely a good school.
But it turns out a LOT of the kids openly behave in a less than exemplary manner, and there is lots of bullying. A neighbour with a child already there is concerned that several of the best and most involved teachers are leaving at the end of this academic year.
A lot of the families seem to use our area with it's great primaries as a springboard to grammar schools outside the area, and another group send their kids on to private schools. So our local comp has effectively become a secondary modern.
I feel extremely fortunate that there is a supportive, moderate-sized, religious state secondary a short drive away for my eldest, but am fully intending to move 3/4 miles in a few years to be in the catchment for a lovely grammar, so my bright youngest potentially has both options.

But this feels like regression to the mean. So the 90% need the academically top 10% to thrive in school BUT what about the fate of the top 10% when they are in mixed cohorts that move at a far slower pace than they require? Why don't the needs of these kids matter?

In my view - if Grammar schools have amazing facilities (I thought the only difference from state comprehensive is faster pace and stronger academic cohort), then we should be working to ensure similar facilities are available at comprehensive. If lack of funding for tutoring is the issue - we should expand Grammar schools to have a few in every region and the curriculum for the exam taught to all. Some may choose to continue to privately tutor their kids but you can't stop that and they do that for GCSEs and Alevels (both those in private and state schools anyway). But at least the core support is available for all and parents who feel their child suit a faster pace can put them forward for the Grammar schools

We live very close to the top Grammars in the country (QE boys abd Henrietta Barnet) and they are more multiethnic than the local state schools. Many immigrants are more academically driven than native Brits - as the cultures in most of those countries sees top flight academics as the main route to success.

And also socioeconomically diverse too. I know of parents who dedicated their time to tutoring their kids themselves to the exclusion of any promotions at work etc, those who took on roles as TAs/dinner ladies in a primary school so they had the time to tutor their kids whilst the other parent kept the family together financially

@newmummycwharf1 "BUT what about the fate of the top 10% when they are in mixed cohorts that move at a far slower pace than they require? Why don't the needs of these kids matter?"

Of course the needs of those kids matter. That's why there are top sets.

@newmummycwharf1 You seem to be saying that in order to get into a grammar school you have to have entire well off, or knowledgeable, highly motivated parents. Not much social mobility happening there....,

Top sets for every subject? No
From day 1? No

What's the ability range in the top set? Because most comps want to use the brightest to encourage along the top of the middle ranks. So in my comp the top sets had the most kids in (30+) and an ability range from an A to a D.

The brightest will do ok, will do fine. But they won't be stretched to their best - that's just not a priority in a comp.

'All the test books are on Amazon.
Perfectly obtainable.'

If you can afford them!

It's very easy for us to shell out for a few books on Amazon when the money is in our back pocket (I've done it myself today for some Key Stage 3 Maths books) to be able to do so. But do you think lots of families across the UK, with genuinely naturally bright kids, who they're struggling to feed beans on toast to are gonna put those text books before those beans?

When do you think mums and dads working multiple jobs to feed their kids are going to go through these text books with their kids when they're hanging out of the arses with exhaustion.

It's not as easy as 'just buy the books' because, again, to many many families with bright kids, truly bright kids not tutored ones, they are not at all obtainable.

From my experience in NI- they don’t have the best teachers. Many are quite lazy as they have a cohort who are quite bright.

I am highly contemptuous towards grammar schools, because I went to one, and it was a horrible experience from start to finish.

The place was absolutely brutal and placed all of us under considerable stress all the time, with a ridiculous amount of homework, exams and competitive activity. The teachers who ran the place were absolute thugs.

I'm convinced it really damaged me and that I'd have done better at a comp. No way was l going to put my own kids through that. I want them abolished.

If you don’t mind me asking when did you leave school and what do you mean by the school was ran by thugs?

Fair enough that "some" people won't be able to afford to buy anything, but you can buy the practice/test books from Amazon for under a tenner and second hand from ebay for under a fiver, so they're easily within the ability of most people to pay. I've also seen them in charity shops for 49p/99p.

I left in 1992.

There was shocking teacher on pupil aggression and bullying.

Your assumption that the 10% are the top is flawed. They're the 10% at the top rather than "the" top.

Any gains made up to 16 (and there's no evidence that grammar schools improve educational outcomes) are wiped out by the time students graduate. Private education adds about half a grade on average. (admittedly it adds a lot of soft skills that comprehensives don't)

In fact, comprehensively educated students do better at university than both their privately & grammar educated peers.

"A five-year study tracking 8,000 A-level candidates found that a comprehensive pupil with the grades BBB is likely to perform as well in their university degree as an independent or grammar school pupil with 2 As and a B."

What is telling though is that a privately educated graduate, with the same degree & classification and from the same University as a state educated graduate, is much more likely to be working in a top profession and to be earning more. Although the state educated graduate is more likely to stick at that profession.

That's what privilege buys you.

Rather than focus on the 10% we need to enable greater access to a wider pool of diverse talent. Grammar schools and private schools do the opposite, they don't benefit employers, social mobility or society, you're not getting the brightest & the best. It's simply benefitting those that can afford it.

Maybe you're right. In which case they'd do even better at a comprehensive with teachers encouraging them. Just read this article which is quite revealing https://comprehensivefuture.org.uk/i-removed-son-grammar-school-put-secondary-modern/

I have less of a problem with grammar school existing and more of a problem that it’s STILL another way that the richest can game the system through paying for tutors etc.

My problem is with the market for 11+ hothousing more than anything. It is only a fair and equitable system if children are given at least close to similar opportunities to get there (recognising that there are children living in chaotic households who are always at a disadvantage even if all the learning is done alongside peers in the classroom of a state school).

And what is the point of pushing your child into a grammar school system where they’re going to need even more tutoring just to keep up with brighter (possibly more deserving) classmates? Isn’t it better to be a high performer in a different type of school?

Both of mine could definitely have been suitable for grammar but my eldest didn’t want to try and my youngests self esteem was and is so fragile that I wouldn’t have wanted to put her through it. They’re both flying in an all abilities comp (eldest got two grade 9 GCSEs in year ten and is about to complete 11 more with similar predictions and youngest is getting the high end of reports on her tracking scale). I’m a product of grammar school myself though (back in the days where you all just took it one afternoon without any fanfare) so I’m not against although I feel they’re more independent beings than my school mates ever were. Could be more about being a product of our time and expectations of grammar girls back in the day though.