If state grammar schools were for only state educated children…

[Rosaluxemberg]

Do you think it would help social mobility ? And that children on FSM or from very disadvantaged backgrounds who showed academic promise could gain entry with contextual 11 plus marks (like Unis).
To me the fact that privately educated children can benefit from 7 years of great education, with small classes, lots of attention, and to cap it all, preparation towards the 11 plus just seems so unfair and defeats the whole objective of it. Maybe there’d be more mixing of kids as middle class parents had to decide which path to take.
Who knows ? Any thoughts ?

I wouldn't want to be the bright but far from exceptional child who only gets in because they've been privately tutored for two years to pass one test. That's setting them up to fail.

Blimey. I don’t know any private senior schools charging £70k
Eton is £50 approx and one of the highest

They really aren’t. According to the ISC, average term fees for day schools are £6.3k for secondary and £5.5k for junior.

Id also @80sMonster say there are many Private senior schools throughout the country charging less than £30k
Ive just seen some on an ‘affordable private schools’ web. For senior years @£15K - £18k, after just a quick scan through

Worth a look

£15200 average last year. I think as a lot of Mumsnet is Londoncentric people tend to think all private schools charge the 30k+ a year which they just don’t. That said, it’s still a huge chunk of money. My husband and I send 3 (one secondary, 2 primary and hopefully one moving to grammar before no 4 starts) on 28k and they are the going rate in the area.

@GabriellaMontez I meant the child who got in because they lowered the scores for children from low income families , not children who haven’t been tutored . I know plenty of people who have got in by just doing extra work at home or nothing .

Remove the grammar schools and have great state education for all.

Couple of hours expert 1 to 1 tuition a week, versus own work at home.

This is not even close.

Although I agree it's doable to pass without a tutor.

Here's the thing, if great state education for all was achievable, or even a consideration, there would be no need to abolish grammar schools. They'd become obsolete soon enough.

@ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat "Here's the thing, if great state education for all was achievable, or even a consideration, there would be no need to abolish grammar schools. They'd become obsolete soon enough."

You do know that grammar school kids only do marginally better than the top sets in comprehensive schools? Basically, a grammar school is just the top sets in a different building.

To my knowledge, in grammar schools where they offer contextual places, you still have to get a pass mark in the exam. You then automatically get a place, regardless of proximity or any other criteria.

In my town, a fair number of children try out for OOC grammar school places. The back-up option is our oversubscribed, outstanding comprehensive. Parents still prefer grammar schools over the comprehensive.

Better than ALL comprehensive schools?

If that’s the case then why all the hoopla about it then?

@moglet

I used the data from the ISC 2024 census, and I’ve randomly checked fees at schools across the country using the ISC interactive map. It was hard to find anything much even slightly below the ISC averages.

Our grammars even have non grammar sets.

However @CurlewKate in grammar school areas ( or at least our area ) there is very little comparison with final results. Grammars steaming way ahead of non grammars.

"However @CurlewKate in grammar school areas ( or at least our area ) there is very little comparison with final results. Grammars steaming way ahead of non grammars."

Because the non grammars don't have the grammar kids in them. They aren't comprehensives. So of course they don't do as well.

I think maybe the point @CurlewKate is making is there is little difference in exam performance at grammar schools and comprehensive schools in non-selective areas.

It’s the kids at the secondary moderns that are disadvantaged by the grammar system.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2023/aug/no-evidence-grammar-school-systems-are-best-brightest

I have only skimmed the thread so apologies if this point has already been made. Where I am in Kent, state primaries are not allowed to do any prep work with the children which could be construed as 11+ preparation, whereas the private prep schools advertise their pass rates and actively coach the children in VR and NVR. Many of them are also tutored, despite being at private schools, so the playing field is not remotely level. The Kent Test curriculum covers topics that are not taught until Y6 - yet the test is taken in week 2 or 3 of the first term of Y6....

Therefore, what would greatly help social mobility would be for KCC to allow the state primaries to run "11+ Clubs" at lunchtime, so that the children whose parents can't afford tutoring, can practise all of the different questions and then have a fairer shot at the test. Bright children who aren't tutored should be able to access the grammar schools - but they are disadvantaged because there is such a huge 'arms race' and tutoring industry here, and plenty of wealthy parents who are able to pay substantial sums for it.

During Covid, my youngest had almost no schooling during the first lockdown - just three worksheets sent via email on a Monday morning. He'd finish those by about 10am on Monday and I had to scrabble around to find resources for the rest of the week. Friends with children at the local preps were having Zoom lessons and a full school day, after about a week of lockdown. He was in Y5 and the test was in September - I asked the head of the school where the older boys were (and where we were aiming for) whether any allowance would be made for the state school children who were left to flounder - he said that they couldn't change the pass marks because the entry criteria were set the year before. It was very hard - his tutor was diabetic and couldn't meet so he didn't have much tutoring either - but luckily he (JUST) made it!

The grammars have had to change to prioritise local children, in order to get capital funding from the county - and they do have a higher percentage of state school children now, but I think that the county could do more and allow state primary schools to coach for the test.

I wasn't talking about lowering the scores. Just standardising by income to get the score, like they do with age. We are in an area where children are ranked to get in though, not pass/fail then distance. Distance is only used as a tie breaker.

I think the elite panicked when the grammar school system of old made it abundantly clear that, given the opportunity, there were shedloads of working class kids who could easily match and compete with the children of the middle and upper classes. So the system was stymied, sadly aided and abetted by the Labour Party.

They don’t allow the schools to do it.
They can’t stop parents paying for tutoring, or tutoring the children themselves.

When i took the 11+ in the 80s, we were all entered (I think you could opt out) and the exam was taken in school. I'm not even sure i knew when it was, just turned up one day and told it was today.

We did practice NVR etc in maths. i was top set so maybe it wasn't everyone.

But noone had a tutor that i knew of.

I dont understand the rationale of not allowing practice in school

Yes if you read above posts I did correct my mistake in a later post

Yeah. That's the case here, too. Kids who have ever been in care, or been in receipt of free school meals at any point in the previous six years, only have to reach the qualifying score - then they are in. The rankings then apply when those places are allocated.

It doesn't change the fact that very few FSM kids get in.

I think it would make a lot more sense if all kids still sat the 11 plus if they live in an area which has grammars - or that the SATS were tweaked to include an 11 plus element, universally taken. The issue isn't just that they don't boost kids from low income families; it's that the families need to know how to register for the test, and to be motivated to do it. Most people don't know that's how to access them at all, and assume the schools are the ones who decide this. IMO that's one of the biggest barriers of all.