If state grammar schools were for only state educated children…

[Rosaluxemberg]

Do you think it would help social mobility ? And that children on FSM or from very disadvantaged backgrounds who showed academic promise could gain entry with contextual 11 plus marks (like Unis).
To me the fact that privately educated children can benefit from 7 years of great education, with small classes, lots of attention, and to cap it all, preparation towards the 11 plus just seems so unfair and defeats the whole objective of it. Maybe there’d be more mixing of kids as middle class parents had to decide which path to take.
Who knows ? Any thoughts ?

Not a boost, just standardise scores so children are on a more level playing field. The same as they already do with age. If income doesn't make a difference to scores then standardising won't change them. Plenty of children from low income families are capable of holding their own once in the grammars with the privately tutored, well off children.

Not all secondaries are 30-70K, only the top ones. Many are around 20K.
However yes you are correct in the sentiment and Grammar Heads are already warning about this happening.

In which case, so are state primary schools, so why not use them then?

BTW many Counties have nod had state grammar schools for a long time, some since the 70s.

The point OP is making, is that parents are using the private system in early years to ensure that their kids are ready to take up places, which are based on exams and selection, at the secondary or 6th form stage. Thus 'taking' places that others would need to access higher education and help towards mobility for the less well off.

A lot of grammars do ask for quite substantial monthly payments. They’re voluntary of course but as lots of middle class families can afford it a lot of them do pay it. It tends to fund facilities though

The average is actually just over £15k for secondary and around 7 for primary

Sorry, my point was that a lower score does not mean they will struggle. It likely just means that their parents couldn't afford tutoring. The child could easily be brighter than a child that has been tutored for two years so scored higher.

Such an interesting thread. This is why a friend fell out with me- she felt my privately educated dd shouldn’t be able to access the grammar schools and was furious with me for putting dd in for the 11+ and ultimately sending her to a grammar school. We’d been friends for years, so I was gutted.

I think in lots of cases it’s more nuanced than just fair/unfair (although I guess I would say that!)

They certainly don't in our area! Is that in London?
Richest man I know has 2 boys at our local grammar and regularly jokes how much he has saved not sending them to his old school. He'd be telling the pub in outrage if they asked him for more than the money for school trips!

And if your DD had failed the 11+ would you have sent her to the secondary modern school?

That's my main gripe about the grammar system rhetoric. It's always parents of bright children arguing for grammars. Not very often parents of middling (or even just below grammar standard) DC arguing for secondary moderns, and yet the two go hand in hand

@redskydarknight "That's my main gripe about the grammar system rhetoric. It's always parents of bright children arguing for grammars. Not very often parents of middling (or even just below grammar standard) DC arguing for secondary moderns, and yet the two go hand in hand"

I agree. I wish it was called the secondary modern system.

That's what I mean about having it so that if you are using grammars to opt out of paying private and take all of the places away from poor students, you should be charged to better the school and open it up further.

If Starmer's kid hadn't got into the grammar or had SEN he would be in a private like so many people in private are because there's little state provision that suits them.

Yes, I've included day schools and boarding, these are the numbers I've seen where we are based, obviously not including the additional VAT. Particularly where you have a very high calibre of Grammar schools, the competition will intensify. Our local (one of the best in the country), only has a pupil premium (students from disadvantaged backgrounds) of 3.3%, I wonder if the implications of increased competition have been thought through, and sufficiently budget for in Labour's plan and numbers?

@redskydarknight no, I’d have stayed private although truthfully it would have been a huge stretch (and she’s 18 now, so whilst it wasn’t that long ago, it was before the extra 20% and it did feel more achievable then that with a small house and a crappy car, private was doable).

Ours had a direct debit form at the start of year 7, not London. I just ignored it as we don't have spare money.

@Bibbetybobbity that’s a shame. I think it is harsh to blame an individual for playing the game when the system is set up in a way that actively encourages middle class people to do so.

It reminds me of the other extreme:
some principled teacher-parents i knew who sent their kids to the local sink school in the 80s because they believed selective education was “wrong”. They had three gentle, bright, kind girls. Their kids got through GCSEs okay and one managed to complete a degree and had a good career, but I think they were somewhat crushed by the environment (gangs, disruption, no streaming and “not cool” to be bright or successful or ambitious). All the other parents judged them for this stupid decision. It turns out very few parents would choose to send their kids to the worst school if they had another choice. So it flows that you can’t blame parents for playing the system to get the best possible education.

Thanks @SpringKitten and ironically, I’d consider myself working class. I certainly had a working class childhood, my dd obviously hasn’t. I think it’s all very divisive. The ‘system’ if you can access it, isn’t impossible to crack (I’m in an heavy grammar county) and I am not sure what else could be done to broaden participation/understanding of that. Genuinely.

Ditto re: uni entry. There’s SO much support for ppl applying from a disadvantaged standpoint, but I’ve found that many around here don’t know about it and if their parent/parents didn’t go to uni, or English isn’t their first language, they’re really in the dark vs my clued up dd with a uni educated mum and a pushy private then grammar education.

No of course they haven't but that is irrelevant because as admitted today, they don't care about it making sense. This is purely an attempt to get rid of private schools, dressed up as making money for the state and sod the consequences!

I wouldn’t want to be the child testing out that theory

I think it would be very interesting to see 11+ score mapped vs final GCSE and A level grades. Also including SATs score, if available, to compare ‘ability and teaching in curriculum subjects’ vs ‘training in 11+ test’. The issue with the latter being provate schools not doing SATs.

Fee paying Prep schools prepare their pupils for Common Entrance exams at 13, not 11+, although they may benefit from a better general education they will need to get support for the 11+ exams elsewhere.

So punish the child because their parents could afford a private prep? Really? You think that's 'fair'?

It depends. In areas with grammar schools (but few ‘public’ schools with admission at 13) there is often a significant industry of schools specifically training for 11+ grammar entry.

My rather crappy comp magicked up a swimming pool, paid for, designed and built by the PTA.

It was still a rather crappy comp, just with kids that had been taught how to swim.

🤣 I used to work in a very well known London grammar where most of the parents did this quite happily (because if they hadn’t got in then the boys would most likely have gone private). It was relatively common in the area. Where I am now also has the grammar system but nobody pays extra- i think it very much depends where you are

My child tested this. Scraped the exam.

Flourished in grammar school where the expectations were high, academia was encouraged. The teaching was mainly excellent and behaviour better than at the local comp.

Many of those who got high 11+ scores had access to multiple tutors. Of course they did better!