To think a declining birth rate is a good (and inevitable) thing

[OptimismvsRealism]

Article in the times today about the "push for Britain to have more babies" on the basis that a declining population will cause economic shocks.

One of the proposals is "fertility checks in your 20s and education about declining fertility in biology classes".

I mean. Isn't it great that people only have babies if they really, truly want them? And isn't it good to have a smaller human burden on the planet (and fewer humans vying for declining jobs as tech replaces us at most of the things we used to do)?

I don't believe for a second that fertility checks would help anyone. Nobody is out there going "trala I'm 45 and really want five babies but just haven't felt like starting yet"!

Absolutely this. Almost nobody needs to be on benefits.

And actually @VolvoFan i have suffered miscarriages but it’s in nobody’s interest for people to have 5+ children, certainly not the children’s, many of whom don’t get the attention they need or many who even end up acting as caregivers for younger siblings. And actually I think when a huge, huge factor of damage to our planet is overpopulation it is everyone’s business when people are having too many kids.

@ItsNotAShopItsAStore I understood you perfectly well, thanks. If you don't want to inflame things further, with respect, please stop talking to me.

I will absolutely NOT stop talking to you - you’ve wrongly accused me of being glad people are infertile. Quite how you’ve reached that conclusion I’ll never know because I said nothing of the sort. So Justify yourself please, or accept you were wrong.

Seriously love just admit you misread my post, your completely melodramatic and inflammatory post was utterly offensive. If you have in fact very poor reading comprehension (the only other logical conclusion other than you’ve purposefully twisted my post for some reason) then go and work on that before you make disgusting accusations again

Please tell me @VolvoFan which if these sentences equate to “I’m glad people are infertile” (the only parts of my post I referred to infertility)

I’m very sorry for anyone who experiences fertility issues, I can’t imagine how heartbreaking it must be.

I don’t like the thought of more people having fertility issues however

The rest of it was stating 5-7 children is too many.

So do enlighten me how on Earth you drew this conclusion

The only people I know who had children "late" did so for reasons beyond their control. They either had fertility issues, weren't in a stable position financially or simply didn't meet a partner who was willing to settle down in their late twenties or early thirties. I don't know anyone who delayed children because they thought they had all the time in the world to have them. It's patronising to suggest women don't know about their biological clock.

We're sticking with one child because that's what makes financial sense to us. If we had more money, we'd probably have a second. In the short term while they're small, we could afford a second even though our lifestyle would be reduced compared to what we'd like. But given the state of the housing market, university fees and general cost of living, we're sticking with one so we can help with all those things (and hopefully leave a sizeable inheritance when we pass).

Don’t worry, they will introduce MAID to the UK soon 🙄

This was my thinking. Realistically you've got 3 crises happening at once in some areas - lack of affordable housing, cost of living in general increasing and childcare fees. The birth rate is decreasing because people who want children cannot afford them. Dh and I bring in roughly 70k between us and we've no help outside of TFC so we've no choice but to wait until ds is at school before we can ttc a second. I'm 36 so that might never happen for us but I met dh in my 30s so it's how it worked out.

A smaller population is fine if its a young and healthy and economically active one. With a much lower birth rate but higher rates of longevity what do you foresee happening when the majority of the population is older, needing care, and economically inactive? At that point we're going to end up looking to immigration to answer our problems which is why it's so short sighted for the current gov to scapegoat immigrants and refugees/asylum seekers as being problematic.

From a global perspective, we need big companies to be more ethical in how they operate that would make a much bigger difference than how many babies are born. The other issue is that more babies will be born into poverty and unstable households with the current climate. While the government has been underfunding community and statutory services that can help.

Far fewer would need benefits if housing costs were not extortionate and/or if wages were enough to live on.

And the young of today are tomorrow's pensioners. It's not like anyone stays young for very long. People live longer and that's why pension age keeps going up, and people are told to start saving for their pensions in their early 20's. For people now in our 20',30's and maybe even 40's, we'll have to pay for our own pensions. Pensioners of today paid for their older generations pensions, but that may be the last generation.
Younger generations are predicted to live even longer than current pensioners. If people stay healthy, there is no reason to stop working I suppose. It's been the norm that we "retire", but that may also become a thing of the past in the years to come.

People live longer and that's why pension age keeps going up

The age has gone up in recent times because of cost, people aren’t living longer healthier lives.

This!!! It’s chilling 😣

I said:

"You said you feel sorry for those who suffer with infertility, and then immediately go on to say that's it's a good thing because then they can't have what you consider to be 'too many' children."

Yes, I said that you said it's a good thing. I made a mistake in conveying something. You didn't say word for word verbatim that infertility is a good thing. You're correct there. However, you do seem conflicted. Infertility means people can't have as many kids, or any at all. But because you'd rather people didn't have 7 kids because in your view that's damaging to the planet, infertility is then.... what? It's obviously not good, is it? You can't choose how many kids people have, but you can certainly get angry about it. I do, but not for the same reasons you do. Those people can have kids and I can't. I guess God hates me. I don't know.

I'm sorry you've experienced miscarriage aswell.

Good night.

Children are the future, Europe is slowly turning into an aging society like Japan.
All child care should be free, from three months old if the mother is working and from two years for sahm. Mothers who have children should be given pension bonuses for the first three she has and children under 18 years old. should have subsidized bus and train fares. Government should make up the loses for firms for time lost through pregnancies.

So people should be penalised in pension terms because they can’t or don’t have children?

FGS, again you’ve 100% misinterpreted - it’s like reading the words “I like oranges” and saying “What you hate apples??!!!”

Whatever you’re angry about - do not project it onto me or other people by twisting their words. It’s embarrassing for you and one day you’ll do it to the wrong person.

My post was as clear as day. I sympathise with people who cannot have children. But that’s not to say that there isn’t a thing as having too many kids. Ill repeat myself that I don’t like that people have too many kids but I also don‘T like that people are infertile and would not want more people going through that.

Im at a loss that I’ve had to explain myself, I wouldn’t usually bother but I really don’t take kindly to a grotesque false accusation that’s I’m fucking glad people are infertile. Whatever you’re going though, you don’t make vile accusations like that.

I already explained that I made a mistake. You're not happy about couples suffering from infertility, at the same time you're not happy about couples having large families. You're holding two contradictory opinions and expecting me to apologise for getting angry at you. I will not apologise for how I've interpreted what you've said. Either explain better or accept that we disagree.

We already know there is a gender disparity in pay and therefore in pensions, women who are lucky to be able to have children lose out even more on pension terms.

Royal London
The financial impact of parenthoodThe gender imbalance can also have a costly impact on retirement savings. Mums can miss out on pension savings of nearly £92k by juggling childcare and working part-time until their child reaches secondary school. And the consequence of leaving work altogether for the same period can create a gigantic £183,000 hole in pension savings.

It’s their choice to have children. It’s not the choice of those who can’t have them, not to. But I do take your point that being unable to have children is financially advantageous in pension terms. Every cloud……

Why dont we embrace the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VoluntaryHumannExtinctionMovement

We import about a million people a year into the country anyway. 'have more babies' when the country is overflowing due to high net migration and people living a lot longer.

Liberal cultures are more interested in pushing Trans and LGBTQ on kids. That's gonna take a bigger hit still with the next generation's birthrate.

They’re not contradictory opinions at all. There’s such a thing as a middle ground

I expect you to apologise for wrongly accusing me of being glad people are infertile. I have no idea why you’re angry at me when you’ve admitted you misinterpreted my post.

Ive explained well enough. My post was clear. What isn’t clear is why you jumped to such an illogical random conclusion.

TBH I don’t really care if you apologise nor have I demanded an apology. What I suggest is you stop embarrassing yourself by projecting your issues onto things other people say and getting it wrong because one day you’ll do it to the wrong person.

It’s their choice to have children.

I think this attitude is part of the reason for the low birth rate. We see ourselves as individuals rather than a community, a human family, whose fates are intertwined.

Everyone in the community benefits when there are enough children and young people in the group. We need each other.