To think a declining birth rate is a good (and inevitable) thing

[OptimismvsRealism]

Article in the times today about the "push for Britain to have more babies" on the basis that a declining population will cause economic shocks.

One of the proposals is "fertility checks in your 20s and education about declining fertility in biology classes".

I mean. Isn't it great that people only have babies if they really, truly want them? And isn't it good to have a smaller human burden on the planet (and fewer humans vying for declining jobs as tech replaces us at most of the things we used to do)?

I don't believe for a second that fertility checks would help anyone. Nobody is out there going "trala I'm 45 and really want five babies but just haven't felt like starting yet"!

Yep! I totally agree.

It would be a good thing if men who dump their wives at 40 for a younger woman weren't doing that, and so the number of children reduced as a result.

It’s not great if people want babies but can’t afford them.

Fewer people is a good thing but economically it makes more sense for them to be younger, an ageing population means ££££ and immigration.

I’d agree too. I suppose the problem comes when you have an increasingly elderly population with expensive care needs being supported by a smaller number of workers/ taxpayers.

I don’t necessarily think a declining birth rate is good but I think the reasons are very complex and not easily solved. its also largely a case of people having fewer children ( I believe the number of childless/ child free women combined is roughly the same as it has been but now the people who do have children aren’t having enough to even it out). Smaller family sizes ( 1 or 2 vs 3 or more) 💯 make sense for most women on completely rational criteria so I resent efforts to make them have any more.

This is often cited but even in the MN utopia of Sweden they are below 2 so it’s really not about economics. It’s about women not wanting to have loads of kids.

It depends who the question is addressed to. At a population level a declining birth rate is not a good thing if the population in question is below the replacement rate.

At the level of individual women and their health and wellbeing it’s a great thing usually. Having large numbers of children correlates with worse economic and educational outcomes for women.

@LaPalmaLlama birth rates are lower in countries with lots of support etc but there are definitely women that would have more dc if it was more affordable. Both things can be true.

If the government thought this was a serious problem they would do something about the dire state of maternity care.

Get rid of the two child benefit limit.

Allow IVF/ICSI on the NHS.

I want Children but can’t have them as there isn’t enough support to have them with my kind of disability

It's a lot less considered than they way you've explained it OP. The issue the Times has is basically the people they want to have more babies are actually having less which is leading them to dress up their concern of what that means in the long term for 'Britain' as 'come on guys! have a check up in your 20s, it'll be fun!!'

No because then you’d have people having 10 children or people who are coming over from foreign countries where the norm is to have loads of children who is going to pay for that the country can’t afford it

Why is there an assumption it’s down to women ‘not realising’ their fertility declines? I’ve never met another woman who wasn’t aware of this..

Im guessing it’s a conscious decision women are making because either

a) shock horror they don’t actually want to have children… maybe they’ve realised how it’s generally women who get the raw deal being expected to do everything, maybe they’re focussed on a career or other fulfilment in life and it just doesn’t interest them.

or b) they would like more children but it’s financially not an option due to crippling childcare costs, the cost of living, low wages etc

it could be so many things.

I have friends who initially wanted two but were so traumatised by awful care giving birth in the NHS that they are one and done. I really don’t think it’s much of a stretch at all to think of reasons why women don’t want babies…

The other thing is that parenting is much more intense these days so the time and energy that probably would have stretched to 4 kids in 1980 will just about cover 2 now.

If the government thought this was a serious problem they would do something about the dire state of maternity care.

instead they will cut services due to reduced demand

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/falling-birth-rate-north-london-maternity-services-close-b1126767.html

@LaPalmaLlama its a lot more demanding as you say

I know several people having children later and as a result not being able to have as many as they want.

The women in question would have started younger if their partners had wanted to settle younger and their careers had been better younger.

In my friendship group there has been a definite lean towards more education and more career ambition so later planning for children and a reluctance from parents to settle til 30s and then they just can't have the number they wanted.

Partners not parents!

The desire to hit career milestones before having kids really holds some women back.

I have 3 grown children…..if I was having children now would likely have stopped at 2

I would say housing costs impact most people’s decisions re dc as many will want housing security before and that’s prohibitive.

no-one knows what the sustainable level of people is on the planet because people use vastly different levels of resources.

We are heading for a cliff if we don't have enough young people to work and generate income and generate innovation.

Some women's fertility drops off a cliff before 30, mine did, i would have liked to have known as i would have loved to have kids. I waited until 35 and i was personally too old by then

There are few things sadder than infertility and there are so many women who want children or more children but there is no support for families.

If we want people to have more children we need low cost childcare, affordable housing, much better maternity and birth care, support for new mothers etc.

When its too late, my view is that we will have to start paying people to have children.

I would have had a football team if it was possible to have been able to afford not to work to care for them. As it is I have two and thats my lot because it's all I can afford.

@buttnut

Why is there an assumption it’s down to women ‘not realising’ their fertility declines? I’ve never met another woman who wasn’t aware of this..

I know. So patronising and irritating. And almost invariably followed by lecturing women for daring to try to “have it all”.

When its too late, my view is that we will have to start paying people to have children.

They are looking at that in other countries & I think it didn’t work in Japan

https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/east-asia/south-korea-birth-rate-cash-incentive-b2533188.html

Agree….I could afford a nice big 50s semi ,3 bed house with large garden for my 3 on relatively low wages ( one public sector job above minimum wage but not much) and a 20 hr a week nursing post….and also afford to put in a loft conversion….and still have all mortgage paid off when I was 48….this was in the 90s …… we wouldn’t even get on the home owner ladder now..ll we live in the NW but it’s the same all over now