To think a declining birth rate is a good (and inevitable) thing

[OptimismvsRealism]

Article in the times today about the "push for Britain to have more babies" on the basis that a declining population will cause economic shocks.

One of the proposals is "fertility checks in your 20s and education about declining fertility in biology classes".

I mean. Isn't it great that people only have babies if they really, truly want them? And isn't it good to have a smaller human burden on the planet (and fewer humans vying for declining jobs as tech replaces us at most of the things we used to do)?

I don't believe for a second that fertility checks would help anyone. Nobody is out there going "trala I'm 45 and really want five babies but just haven't felt like starting yet"!

I think it's fine if you're happy to accept that most people in the future won't be able to retire. Ever.

And that we'll all struggle to access health care and social care in our later years.

Or we'll have to continue to have high levels of immigration (which I'm fine with but I know other people aren't).

I don't think it's so much that there's too many people on the planet but that resources are used & spread incorrectly.

Fwiw I think we should be encouraging British women to have families. I don't understand the "oh but immigration" argument. Why would we want to replace British culture with mass immigration as our future plan? I'm fine with immigration & like multi cultural society but find it a weird argument on this issue x

It is a bit worrying that fertility rates are completely tanking in all the rich, liberal countries.

A declining birth rate is not a good thing in the UK as there'll be more pensioners than young people. This is happening in Japan. Nowadays many British people can't afford to raise more than one or two children unless they're wealthy or fully financially dependant and housed by the government. Some women wait until it's too late. Nursery fees and houses need to be more affordable. If you're concerned about there being too many people on this planet, then there are many countries in this world that have 5+ children as standard.

I'm a big supporter of the 4b movement. That as well as the cost of living has caused the birth rate in 2021 to drop in Korea to 0.86 with last year having almost zero intake in the school year.
It's probably not good for the country but I'm hoping there and In every other country something similar happens to challenge the societies we live in and make it more appealing as a female to want to have a family.

I agree. It is a good thing that women have a choice, and in many cases, many women are choosing smaller families, or their partners dont want more than one or two children, or they decide they dont want any children or, actually, yes, they did leave it too late, because they were busy building up a career, or just enjoying themselves, and were willing to take the risk, which didnt pay off, or decided they didnt want them, and then changed their mind. They had a choice, which many women don't. As a result, some women have to live with the consequences of that choice. I very much doubt any woman has arrived at 40 and not thought at all that she may have difficulties conceiving. What we are not doing anything about is the ageing population. Governments need to put provisions in place for how we are going to care for the elderly and how we are gong to make elderly social care and pensions more affordable, because this is what will bankrupt us as a country. It wont be solved by telling women to have more babies.

Given it shares a land border with North Korea which is not struggling with a lowering fertility age then it's not ideal.

Lots of old people who cant work and require increasing amounts of health & social care, combined with a shortage of young people to fill jobs. How is that a good thing??

Economically it’s bad news, environmentally it’s good news, there needs to be some kind of balancing act or it will end in disaster one way or another.

Economically, culturally, politically it's bad news and that combination doesn't usually have an outcome that works out well ecologically either.

The last South Korean is predicted to die in 2750
my understanding is that China will collapse first

I have one. Love another but not sure can afford it. Housing and childcare are biggest killers. Childcare in particular. We can't afford to have one of us not working, both earn similar amounts, full time childcare is over 2/3rd of one salary but we need that extra third. Obviously simple choice is wait until childcare cost goes down when first starts school, but many may not want a larger age gap, or can have one. People are having kids later. A 35 year old having their first child would be waiting until 40 to have another at which point they may not be able to. Many now have their first around 40, they certainly can't wait. We aren't low earners either!

It's a good thing. Less people mean a better standard of life for the planet and anyone or anything living on it.

Assisted dying at a dignified age, coupled with a willingness to open borders for people to take up care roles will go a long way to quality of life.

Women get blamed for declining birth rates, usually due to 'wanting to have it all'. Rarely hear of the men who don't /won't step up in long term relationships, who aren't mature enough to be a parent, who still behave as if they're single men when they do have children. No wonder so many women are put off.

I have actually known women who weren’t aware of declining fertility. Their mother or aunt or sister had a baby in her early-to-mid 40s, so these women thought it was a given that they could as well.

Societies can do fine with a gradual decline in population that takes many generations, but not a drastic dip within the span of a hundred years or less.

The problem is if the relationship doesn't work there's a stigma about being a single mum which makes men consider woman updatable.
So woman want to find the right man and create stability so that in the event the relationship does end she can afford it.
This takes time and not everyone has found me right at 22.

I think it is way more complex than that.

The human population is growing globally. So all in all, damage will still be done.

I know most of Mumsnet seems to think Jordan Peterson is the devil, but he’s spent a lot of his public career talking about how young men need to improve themselves, quit acting like adolescents, and become the type of men who can be strong fathers and husbands.

Estonia do something like this is a birth rate is/was very low. Elderly care will become an even bigger issue than it is now with a low birth rate. Less hcps, and not just care workers. With the ageism on mn I'm sure many would support lethal injection after a certain age as a solution anyway.

We’re an aging population. In the future there will be less working age people supporting a larger number of pensionable age people. This will be economically unsustainable.

The birth rate has been declining for many years. A declining birth rate, in itself, is not a bad thing. But as it stands the birth rate is too low for the future economy.

The answer isn’t people having babies they don’t want. It’s for people to be able to afford to have babies when they want them.

Pensioner here. I get the grand sum of £159 a week ( paid for by todays workers)
I started work when I was 14 at weekends. Got a proper job at 17 and apart from a short break to have one child, worked full time until I was 66. Presumably during that time I was paying for other retired people to have their pensions?
But oh my, don't people seem to resent the fact that people like me are getting money that they pay for! All these elderly people expecting to be looked after, whatever is the world coming to?
Btw I have voted Labour all my life.

But the thing is if you keep increasing the population this problem will never end and will always be there.

It's basically a ponzi scheme saying we need more people to pay for the current as by doing that you are creating next wave of people needing more people.

Im not saying there is a solution.

I think multi-generational living sounds like it could answer a lot of the logistics about insulating a family from factors that delay childrearing. But then I think about what it would have been like to live with mil and concede I'd rather resign us all to the incoming shitshow