Are women actually unkind to each other due to “jealousy”?!

[Bear0511]

It’s something that comes up on here, and IRL, a lot. Any time there are any issues between women, or a woman treating another woman badly, the resounding answer is “she is just jealous of you”.

I struggle to believe this is actually the case for grown adults who have left school. I have been jealous of many women in my life - for their looks, money, holidays, or various other things. I’ve never been unkind or exclusionary towards them because of it, because I’m an adult and not a 13 year old.

I’ve also had women in my life who I have thought are absolute dicks, haven’t really clicked with, or have drifted from friendships with. If I/they posted on MN, there would be several responses accusing one of us of being “jealous” of the other. When in reality, for whatever reason, I just haven’t wanted to spend time with them, or them with me. Sometimes it’s due to my own personal reasons, and other times it’s because I think they’re a twat with a horrible personality. If a woman hasn’t wanted to be in my life for whatever reason, or hasn’t treated me nicely, I’ve never assumed it was due to jealousy.

Assuming that someone isn’t hugely enamoured with you, no longer wants to be your friend or simply dislikes you just because they are “jealous” of you just strikes me as absolute arrogance, and a way of pushing the issue onto them instead of looking at ourselves and our own behaviour.

It also feeds into sexist tropes about women being “catty” and “bitchy”, and the worst thing is that it is always said by other women. I’ve never been told “she’s just jealous of you” by a man when I’ve been having an issue with another woman. It’s classic internalised misogyny and the female equivalent of “he just fancies you” when a man is unkind to a woman. We no longer accept that as an excuse for bad behaviour from men (thank god!) so why do we still do this to each other?

YANBU - reducing all female relationship issues to “jealousy” is a reductive, sexist trope that stops women from taking accountability for their own actions.

YABU - women are generally only horrible or exclusionary towards each other if they are jealous.

Of course it’s not always envy (I assume this is what you mean by jealousy), but it is sometimes envy.

I get irritated as much by the notion that it’s never envy and ‘they just don’t like you’, as the idea that all bad treatment is due to envy.

Jealous of what?, most people complain how hard done by they are or they are overthinking every aspect of whatever situation they are in, or finding ways to get involved in something that is none of their business, what is there to be jealous about?

I think the concept of people simply being jealous is quite a childish suggestion, people are allowed to just accept they don’t click with someone, nobody is forced to be friends with anyone else and it’s quite silly to suggest this is down to jealousy.

You never hear of men who don’t get on being accused of being jealous do you?

A few years ago when I was getting married I was on a few wedding groups and often people would accuse others of being ‘jealous’ if for example they weren’t showing enough perceived interest in their weddings, which I thought was ridiculous, nobody is under obligation to be that interested and maybe they just thought it was boring 🤣

Some people feel better about themselves by putting others down. Not sure it’s jealousy, maybe more the need to feel superior. I work with women like this and they tried to destroy me but I’m confident with who I am and played the long game. Turns out I’m good at what I do (I already knew but now others have noticed). When you don’t values other people’s opinions it’s enlightening. I do value opinions of those who matter but I select whose I respect.

Yes, I'd agree that it seems to have become a stock phrase when a woman criticises another woman, or even just disagrees with them.

I think it's more likely that their values clash in some way.

There have been a couple of instances in my life recently where either myself or a person known to me was treated badly by another female, and in all instances I definitely believe it was down to jealousy.

Well OP, you need to realise that we are not actually very nice. We say we are, we moan about how toxic and awful "men" are. BUT, we are far worse.

The most evil, vindictive, narcissistic, absolute abhorrent people have ever met have been other women, especially in a work environment. The men I have worked with have generally been either benign or helpful, occasionally awkward. But some other women I have worked with have been awful.

It isn't jealousy. It's just ugly, bitchy, hate.

Don't think for one second that "we" are all walking Saints.

Yes, I agree. As an adult I wouldn’t assume some people don’t like me because they’re jealous. It’s usually a personality clash or just being different types of people. I can’t actually think of anybody I know that I feel jealous of. Most people have a mix of good and bad going on in their life.

It’s sexist bullshit. Some people you get on with and some you don’t. Some of the ‘bitchiest’ people I have come across in work Eg have been men undermining other men, but more often women, to get ahead. But it’s not called that when it’s men, it’s called being ambitious.

Not always jealously.

MIL competes with other women over bizarre things. I took many things personally till I finally realised it was her default - people judge better are fawned over and have to do drastic things to every be judged bad.

I think it's internalised misogyny. DH says it's common behavior round his way and see it more as not getting above yourself (crab bucket) behavior. Seen flashes of similar with some school mums and very much so in last place we lived - many people there put on airs and graces and put other down whole place had massive chips on shoulders.

It's not jealously or even very personal it's like they are trying to construct a hierarchy and slot you in it.

Other times women are indifferent till you can benefit them or actively nasty just because they can be - and I've met men who are exactly the same.

Lots of internalised misogyny as others have noted. Most bullying at work I experienced has come from other women who held grudges for years for perceived slights etc.

I certainly don’t think it’s always about envy. More often than not, it will be something else. But some people (I don’t think it’s just women!) are insecure and envious in a way that manifests itself in unpleasant behaviour. Sometimes they will defend it by saying the person they’re envious of is “too full of themselves” or “spoilt” but you can always tell when it’s about envy. There are a lot of Mumsnet posts where it’s really obvious that the poster is bitter/resentful of the person they’re moaning about because they’re lucky or beautiful or wealthy or has successful kids or something.

Like I say, it’s not just women and it’s not the root of all or even most conflict, but we’d be very naive to say it’s not something that ever happens. It does happen.

I also think that people looking in from the outside are often better able to spot it than the person who is actually the object of the envy. I had a very difficult colleague once and when I was talking to my work friend about a weird incident with that colleague and I said “I don’t expect to be liked by everyone or but she seems to have a really specific issue with me and I just don’t know what it is. If I’ve upset her, I wish I knew how and I’d apologise”. And my friend said “Oh, it’s bloody obvious, leveryone in the office has noticed that she basically just wants to be you. She’s really competitive and always wants to be better than you, and I think it really annoys her that you either haven’t noticed or don’t care.”

To me, this seemed insane. I am not especially successful, not especially attractive and basically nothing special. But I’m also the least needy person ever. I don’t care much about having other people’s attention. And I’m fairly at ease with myself; I don’t feel the need to impress. And apparently that was what annoyed her.

I always sigh when I read posts where the stock answer is jealousy. It seems such an immature response. I assume the posters saying it are
a) young,
b) have never lived outside the environment they grew up in
c) are immature themselves
d) are inarticulate and use the word jealousy because they don’t have the vocabulary or ability to express what they are trying to say properly.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard men being accused of being jealous of each other.

Sometimes the phrase 'internalised misogyny' is used to blame men when actually women should be made to take ownership of their own terrible behaviour towards other women.

Lots of women come across unkind on mumsnet.

I’ve definitely experienced it. An ex friend settled for the guy she’s still with (she told me on different occasions drunk that she thinks she can do better and still has feelings for an ex)

Whenever I showed her a photo of a guy I was talking to or seeing she did nothing but slate their appearance or insist I don’t go on a date - likely because she was worried I’d be in a happy relationship. She was obsessed with me being single, she made it my entire personality … so odd.

Yanbu

Hate this it's so lazy

I don’t think either of those situations describes someone being jealous of you though.

In my experience? Yes. And I am definitely not “lazy”. Bitchy comments about the house I had bought from old school friends I hadn’t seen in a couple of years included “there is no way you live here” and “ who did you shag to get this?”. That is jealousy, absolutely. Because I definitely DID live there and own (with a mortgage) the house, I hadn’t been given or inherited anything and I definitely didn’t shag anyone to buy it! Needless to say, they are no longer my friends.
In my experience, other women can be bitchy and jealous over looks, money, possessions, or your partner (if he treats you well).

In my experience yes it is jealousy. My mum was stunningly beautiful, kind, successful, classy and my dad adored her when I was younger. My aunts ( dad's sister and sister in law so the wife of his brother) were both bitchy, catty and routinely left her out of their meet ups despite her never doing anything to them. I can only assume its because they struggled to achieve what came so naturally to her and couldn't slag people off which was their main source of conversation around my mum as she was genuinely nice to everyone. I'm sure they'd have told themselves it was because she was boring or stuck up or whatever but we all know deep down it's jealousy. As an adult I look back at how they treated her and it does make me feel differently about them tbh.

No, I don't think so. It's just become a lazy go to way to discredit anyone with an opposing view, or to comfort yourself if some dislikes you.

Yes! Some women and men are definitely unkind to others because of jealousy. Or because the other person make them feel inferior in some way (which is similar to jealousy).

But I think where women differ from men specifically is women will judge other women quite harshly for perceived moral failings, and police other women in their in group. At its best that does mean there is push back against genuinely wrong behaviour. At its worst and most toxic you get purity spirals, competitive virtue signalling etc and bitchiness/someone being pushed out for something minor. Men on the other hand tend to police other men in their in group much less. At least for moral failings. At its best that means there is less purity spiralling/weirdness about micro-aggressions in all male groups. At its worst they are way less likely to call out or try to stop men in their "in group" doing really awful stuff. Hence terrible news stories and you think why did no-one stop them? Or why men will get very defensive if their friends or people they see as the same group as them is criticised, whereas they might agree "other group of men" are a problem. But on the other hand loyalty is sometimes good. Both extremes are toxic, in moderation both tendencies are fine.

So I don't think the main reason women seem more toxic/prone to arguing with each other is because they get more jealous.

See I look at it the other way @5128gap when I see posts like yours I just think smoke screen defence for being a c*nt to someone who you perceive as prettier and or more successful than you are….😀….why don’t you like someone though that is the question isn’t it?

I do think it’s more complicated than just plain jealousy….especially within friendships, it’s more insecurity, a lot of seemingly successful (on various perceived levels) women are insecure also and derive their satisfaction/confidence by not just being pretty/successful/wealthy but by feeling they are prettier/wealthier/more successful than others, not by their own personal satisfaction, regardless of what they have and how happy it makes then it only matters if they perceive others to have less….they can’t stand the challenges to their egos and lash out when it happens often in the only way they really can by being mean.