Leak into downstairs neighbour

[Soher]

I had a leak from my bathroom into the downstairs neighbours flat. I didn’t know about the leak until they notified me as it was under the flooring. I had it fixed immediately.

There was a crack to their ceiling and some dripping water when they notified me. I explained I’d had it fixed and they would need to contact their insurance company to sort out the damage. I also notified my insurance to let them know there might be a claim for reimbursement from the neighbours insurance company.

They did nothing and the ceiling has now come down and they are expecting me to pay to have it fixed. They are ignoring the fact they need to go through insurance, my first thought was they don’t have any but they have confirmed they do. I even offered to pay the excess so they aren’t out of pocket.

Other than paying for it all myself which I can’t afford to do is there anything else I could do? Other than the fact I can’t afford to I don’t want to arrange workmen for somebody else’s property, if the work isn’t up to standard for example who then becomes liable.

I live on my own and I’m really stressed as they are becoming more and more aggressive about it.

Years ago, we flooded our downstairs neighbours kitchen. All sorted via insurances (counter claiming theirs to ours) and they were very happy to get new kitchen fitted. Just keep your insurance company informed. They chose their own excess. Not your problem. This is just an accepted risk when you live in an apartment.

My flat had a leak into the flat below several years ago. No damage in my flat or indication of a leak and it was repaired as soon as notified to me but the flat below got an entire new kitchen through the communal buildings policy.

As the damaged kitchen was almost 20 years old I thought the owner would be thrilled to get a new kitchen for only the £1k excess he had to pay. But no - he wanted me to pay the £1k excess for him. I refused and he took me to the small claims court. He lost as I could demonstrate when I was informed of the leak and that I had acted promptly to fix it so there was no negligence on my part. The case dragged on for months with each of us having to make submissions and offers of mediation before a hearing in front of a judge. My insurance didn't include legal cover so I had to represent myself although someone from the insurers legal dept did provide moral support and a bit of help re the process.

I suspect your neighbours don't have insurance and the £1,200 is the full cost. But their poor choices are not your problem. If you fixed it promptly then they don't have a case.

Escape of water excess is not chosen by the policyholder. It's normally set by the insurance company.
But yes they may still be lying about how much it is

I'd write to them:

Here are the details you need.
Here is what you have to do.
This is what will be covered.

I would not offer to pay their excess, if they have a stupidly high excess to get cheaper premiums, then thats their issue.

Then if they take you to court, you have got clear evidence you've done everything right and give them a way to fix the damage. If they are so stupid as to choose not to take the available option, that's very much on them.

@ArthurChristmas22 A leak from internal pipework whether below or above is not 'flooding', much as it may be described as such. Flooding is caused by rivers breaking their banks, because of heavy rain or snow melt, and is unavoidable and that is why it carries a higher excess.

The OP's situation is an 'escape of water', ie a leak. Different situation entirely, should not result in a higher excess unless the policy holder has selected a higher excess to reduce monthly/annual premium cost.

As someone who was flooded by my upstairs neighbour I had to go through my insurance which included getting a loss adjuster to come round and make an assessment of the damage.

my neighbour did not fix promptly (but of a idiot & not the brightest tool in the box) so it was considerable. Plus he paid my excess & all costs - he did take 6 weeks to get it fixed, he would not even switch off his water for 10 mins to test the source.

You can often get 30 mins free advice from many solicitors.
they chose to gamble by having a large excess. I know there’s some you can reduce. I pay extra to have £0 excess as I know I won’t have £500.

whet are they taking you to small claims for?

check at work to see if you have an employee assistance program. As you can often access a set amount of legal cover for free. Next time you do insurance renewal tick legal cover as it’s worth it

I strongly suspect they don't have insurance and this is why they're being so difficult, maybe it lapsed and they didn't stay on top of it....
You're doing the right thing, I'd suggest seeing if your insurance company can put it in writing for you, so you've a record of advising them to follow the correct process

Not sure I see it this way.

We had water damage last year in our house due to a leak from an upstairs pipe in the airing cupboard. Luckily no hole through ceiling but downstairs hall and another room needed redecorating. We went through our insurer.

Loss adjuster came out and his official estimate was approx 20% of the value of the quote we had. Insurer only revised that when I lodged a formal complaint in order to start ombudsman proceedings. Eventually received about 80% of the quote value.

Excess was £400; high because it was water damage. Adding that to the deficit between quote and payout, we couldn’t afford to instruct the contractor.

If we wanted to replace a carpet on the landing, that came under their separate contents policy and there would have been another £400 excess!

When the renewal came through a couple of months ago, our premium increased from £500 approx to £1500. We did not renew with them, but had to declare our claim with other insurers for quotes.

In OP’s case, the neighbour is understandably trying to avoid any of this by getting OP to pay for the damage directly. Unfortunately for them, that’s not going to happen and they’re pissed off because this is going to impact them now and in the future. I don’t blame OP at all, it’s just how it goes with insurance, and at the end of the day that’s what it’s for.

They have to go through the insurance. That is what it's for.

Unfortunately that’s the risk of living in flats, I’d communicate no further, it’s not your fault they choose a policy with that amount of excess (which I am doubting is even true).

They were will fully neglectful by not getting it repaired at the time it happened or some months after.

Do not pay their excess - wait for the insurance companies to sort it. It sounds like they don't have any - that's their problem

@Soher

It sounds like both leaseholders have taken out a leaseholder building insurance policy. These are usually cheaper, but are problematic for a few reasons:

• The leaseholder policies will not cover freeholder retained parts of the building. Even if you have a share of freehold this doesn't mean the retained parts are automatically added to the lease or the policy.
• The leaseholder policies may not comply with the lease. The lease probably states that the freeholder needs to arrange a policy for the whole building.
• Its common for insurers to argue between each other over who is responsible. Having one policy makes it clear.
• Even if the leases say the leaseholders are responsible for their own insurance it is usually better to have one policy covering the whole of the building.
• If the leases state that the freeholder is responsible for reinstating the building it may be likely the leaseholder policies will never pay out.

If you don't have a copy of your lease you can obtain a copy from the Land Registry for £7. I'd also obtain a copy of your neighbour's lease.

The leases will tell you what is demised to you. Usually this is in the first schedule of the lease. If something isn't mention, then its the freeholder's retained part. The leases will also mention who is responsible for repairs and paying for repairs.

I'm in the same situation as you and the leases require a single freeholder building insurance policy. Use a specialist insurance broker to obtain a policy as they are best to advise.

Its possible you have a self repairing lease which means one leaseholder is responsible for everything down and another up. However it is still wise to have a single policy for the whole building to avoid arguments.

I'd seek some advice. Lease Advice provides a free service https://www.lease-advice.org/ However you may be best to seek the advice from a solicitor on how to insure properly. When you purchased the leasehold, what did the solicitor say in regards to insurance?

As a few others have said, this is not your responsibility. For a third party liability claim to be successful, there has to have been negligence - by act or omission. For example if you let your bath overflow, or damage the pipe work, or failing to repair a pipe you suspected might be leaking (water on your own floor, draining issues, etc). You have to have had known or ought reasonably to have known of an issue and not acted upon it, for their claim to be successful. Having a leak under floorboards that you had no way of knowing about until it was reported to you, at which point you acted promptly to remedy, does not constitute any negligence.

You are not liable for their repairs or their insurance excess. Their claim will be covered under a standard peril buildings insurance policy for escape of water. No recovery to be made against you/your insurers.

If it eases your mind, you could ask your insurers to put in writing why your policy doesn’t respond, and you can provide it to your neighbours, although their own insurers should have explained it to them.

FYI this is my job.

This! No way would they choose this as their excess. If the problem was at their property this is the excess they personally would have to pay - they are def trying it on.

Say that now they have threatened you with court action (small claims wouldnt cover this anyway) you have been advised by your solicitor not to say anything else to them that isnt through your solicitor
If they wont 'pay' their insurance premium they definitely arent going to pay a solicitor!
Stop engaging; they are hoping to wear you down.

Its probably worth having a free 30-minute chat with a solicitor and they may advise writing a letter (from them) to get them to stop harassing you

Yes, it will be ££ to just write that letter, but worth it for the piece of mund and frighten them off

I can only tell you my experience. We lived in a maisonette too.

Our bath tap was accidentally left on and it flooded the bathroom and leaked down to a salon which was underneath us. It damaged their roof and also a sunbed.

I had to contact my insurance provider and give them an email address to contact to make a claim. I couldn't start the claim on their behalf. The roof and electrical damage was covered by building insurance and the sunbed was covered by our contents insurance.

You said you own the lease to a flat. What is included in the lease for which you pay service charge for maintenance of common parts.
Who do you pay sc to? Does sc cover contributions to building insurance?
What isn’t covered in your lease for which you pay sc is the responsibility of the freeholder.
So does the freeholder own the walls, roof, floor etc and if so the leak of the shower may be your responsibility but the ceiling/floor may be a claim on freeholders building insurance.
So report the issue asp to whoever you pay sc to

They’re being complete bell ends. They clearly haven’t got insurance.

You’ve been polite and tried to be more than helpful and reasonable.

Don’t pay their Excess of £1200 for this supposed ‘policy’ (or the amount it is going to cost them to get the work done, because that’s not an excess!). I used to sell house insurance, seriously that isn’t an excess. Most subsidence claims are like £1k excess. They’re pulling your leg and being aggressive as they’ve no insurance.

How bad is the damage? Just the ceiling in one room/area? Is anything else damaged other than the ceiling or it just needs a clean and new ceiling? I wouldn’t expect a plastered to charge more than £300 or so for one rooms ceiling to be replaced. I think it would be kind to offer half of that but also not needed. Would be silly to pay that much excess if that’s the only damage. (Whoever said it was coming down anyway… the wet part could have been cut out and just a patch repaired..)

The OP has said, there is no service charge, no common parts, no freeholder. It's a maisonette and they each own their half of the building, so OP owns the roof.

So who holds the title? They cannot both but separately hold the freehold unless joint ownership with deed of trust setting out the responsibility for maintenance of the land and estate

£1200 sounds excessive l doubt very much that it's correct they are trying to get you to pay for the whole work perhaps they are lying and have no insurance, stand your ground and tell them to claim from their insurance.

I just checked, and on my home insurance the compulsory excess for this kind of claim is £100. So would indicate a voluntary excess of over £1,000. Which seems, um, unlikely…

In his youth, DH owned an upper floor maisonette. He was responsible for the roof, his part of the garden and the front path to his door. He also owned the loft. The ground floor flat had a door adjacent to DH's and they owned the part of the front garden in front of their door and front room.

There was no service charge. There were no common areas. Each maisonette arranged their own buildings and contents insurance.

There was ground rent of £10 per year to pay and he had 128 years of the lease left when he sold it.

A maisonette is not the same as a flat.

Yes this! A- there is no shitting way anyone would accept an insurance policy where their excess is that high
B- if they were stupid enough to accept this as an excess fee they have to pay it, no one else!