Leak into downstairs neighbour

[Soher]

I had a leak from my bathroom into the downstairs neighbours flat. I didn’t know about the leak until they notified me as it was under the flooring. I had it fixed immediately.

There was a crack to their ceiling and some dripping water when they notified me. I explained I’d had it fixed and they would need to contact their insurance company to sort out the damage. I also notified my insurance to let them know there might be a claim for reimbursement from the neighbours insurance company.

They did nothing and the ceiling has now come down and they are expecting me to pay to have it fixed. They are ignoring the fact they need to go through insurance, my first thought was they don’t have any but they have confirmed they do. I even offered to pay the excess so they aren’t out of pocket.

Other than paying for it all myself which I can’t afford to do is there anything else I could do? Other than the fact I can’t afford to I don’t want to arrange workmen for somebody else’s property, if the work isn’t up to standard for example who then becomes liable.

I live on my own and I’m really stressed as they are becoming more and more aggressive about it.

What’s the rough time line on this, how long did you take to get it fixed after they told you and how long after it was fixed did the ceiling come down. If it’s short then long you are in a very different position to long then short. Them sorting it quickly could have meant a much smaller, cheaper job.

I would ask for proof from their insurance company of the excess amount.

@Justme2023123 is correct. You won't be liable unless you were negligent in causing the leak or knowingly allowing it to continue and cause foreseeable damage. Similarly if you have liability cover under your own insurance it will only respond if you are legally liable (negligent).

In theory they can bring a court claim but you'd have a complete defence as above.

Don't offer to pay anything as this could be seen as an admission of liability. Retract any offers to pay the excess etc, say you have looked into the legal position and made your earlier comments in error.

There ought to be a buildings policy that will cover reinstatement of the structural damage (ceiling). They need to ask the freeholder to claim on that. In theory the freeholder pays the excess though the lease may entitle freeholder to recover it from the claiming leaseholder or all leaseholders collectively (is there a management fund from the service charges?) Their contents insurance should cover any contents only losses (carpets, furniture) and they pay that excess.

It is absolutely not on you to arrange reinstatement of their or the freeholders property. The owner of the damaged property must deal and if there is a liability claim then the claim will be in damages (compensation). As above I don't think there is a valid claim.

@IsadoraQuagmire thanks a lot! I meant to say Dad is the leaseholder, yes. The freeholder has instructed the insurance company to send plumbers to find the leak. They still haven't and the water is gushing! The poor neighbour upstairs is looking at a collapsed ceiling in a flat he beautifully restored last year. And my dad had the whole flat repainted only at the end of February! What a waste... what I don't understand is how we have the structural damage fixed (ceilings/ re plastering) when the flat owners only have contents insurance. It's the freeholder that will need to claim, right? And then charge all flat owners for the share of excess?

Yes, I'm pretty sure you're right! Because it's the structure of the building and not your possessions that are damaged (though that could be a separate claim under contents insurance) It's a bit confusing and would feel a lot more straightforward if you lived in a house where you'd know exactly what to do and who to contact. What a nightmare for your dad and his neighbour!
I live in a flat and prefer them to houses in lots of ways, but things like this happening are a real worry!

If it were me I would just write to them/send it recorded mail that you've spoken to your insurer and they're awaiting contact from their insurer and understand they'll review the claim when they receive it. That your insurer advised the next step was for them to contact their insurance about the incident.

Like you've said I definitely wouldn't be arranging any builders myself, you'll never hear the end of it/never good enough/oh actually the room is damaged and now entirely needs redecorating.... Don't pay their excess charges either that's their excess if they need to pay it. It was a pipe that leaked it can happen to anyone, you're not to blame.

Next time they approach you, you could tell them that you were advised by your insurance company not to engage in such kind of conversation and that all such questions/issues/etc are handled by your insurance companies (theirs and yours), it's all between them now.
Unfortunately for them, they need to pay excess and probably later on they will be compensated by your insurance company. When they got their insurance quote, they chose this excess limit, so should be ready to pay it in case of emergency. That's not your problem.

Is your flat leasehold or freehold?
If leasehold, there should be shared buildings insurance, and individual contents.
When this hapenned to me (I was ground floor, leak was 2nd floor, but it hapenned when all of us away in summer, completly wrecked 1st floor and some damage to mine) it all went through on the insurance of the top floor flat. That was 10 years ago. 2nd floor gave me their insurance details to contact them, and same for 1st floor

They shouldn't be out of pocket at all; it should be you claiming on your insurance you caused the problem. Why should their insurance go next year and why should they have to pay an excess. That should all be on you.

Do you have a property management company that looks after the leasehold stuff? They might be able to spell out the facts to them if they aren’t getting it?

Just like car insurance, they should be able to claim for their excess as part of their claim against your insurance.

I’ve spoken to my insurance again today, they’ve said their insurance company can’t claim against mine to get any money back, nor can I use my policy to claim back their excess. I’ve not idea if this is the norm or not all I know is I can’t afford their excess or to repair the damage myself.

for everyone mentioning the leaseholder and building insurance situation it’s a maisonette not a block of flats so I don’t think it works the same, we have no joint policy or full building cover.

They chose the excess amount when they took out insurance. That is their problem. You could - if you can afford it - offer to pay half in the interests of neighbourly feelings, but fundamentally this is how the world works. An excess is annoying, but it's the risk you take moving the excess dial higher so the premium comes down!

They can try and take you to small claims for the excess, but unless they can prove you caused the damage deliberately/through negligence, there's zero chance of them winning.

Stay calm, put everything in writing. As poster above suggested - recorded letter, stating facts only.

Suggestion below but am sure other posters will have input as this isn't my forte...

"Dear neighbours,

Further to a conversation with my insurance company I can confirm you must make a claim for any damage to your property via your insurers. My insurers will not cover repairs your property.

I have taken advice, and I am not liable for your excess. You are free to pursue this in small claims, but I fixed the issue as soon as I was alerted to it and therefore an award is unlikely. I was not negligent.

I know this is frustrating, given we are such close neighbours I hope we can move forward from this incident."

I know it's stressful, but you mustn't give them any money/arrange any repairs. This is basic adulting 101 and they are annoyed and trying to bully you (possibly because they don't have the money for their excess either, which doesn't surprise me as £1200 is a big chunk of cash to have to find).

Stay calm, keep repeating to yourself/them: it has to go through insurance.

*Further to a conversation with my insurance company I can confirm you must make a claim for any damage to your property via your insurers. My insurers will not cover repairs your property.

I have taken advice, and I am not liable for your excess. You are free to pursue this in small claims, but I fixed the issue as soon as I was alerted to it and therefore an award is unlikely. I was not negligent*
This is perfect

Ex household claims manager here. It is usual to claim off of buildings insurance, as it's a masonette, the company who you pay a service charge to will insure it.
It is likely that your home contents insurance will cover your legal liability as occupier of your home. Therefore, if the worst comes to the worst, your policy should cover you. Check the policy book.
You need to tell your neighbours that they need to speak to the management company. And you have been advised to have no more communication on the matter.

There's always so many people giving wrong information on threads about claims on flats. And clearly many people haven't read all OP's posts either before relying.

It sounds like you know the right information already OP.

What you've been told is right. They would need to claim on their buildings insurance and then their insurance would claim off yours. But yes they would need to claim on theirs, like you've been told.

(Yes most of the time a building of flats has one policy for the whole building but there are sometimes cases like OP where each flat has its own. So it's not unheard of)

(Yes it's unusual that the excess would be that high but again it can happen so it's not impossible. But who knows if there's trying it on our being genuine)

(This is escape of water not flooding)

If you live in a flat then your communal building insurance may cover the cost of repairs. We had a similar situation when we lived in a tenement flat many years ago where the leak originated from the floor above us, but brought down our bathroom ceiling, and the bathroom ceiling of our downstairs neighbour. The communal insurance that we paid through the building factor (or managing agent) paid for the repairs to both properties. It was still an absolute pain in the neck so you need to have some sympathy for your downstairs neighbour!

OP has already started that there is no communal insurance. They each have their own

In a similar situation we were able to open our own claim with the joint insurer. I believe the management agent would have given us the contact details. Good luck to your Dad and his neighbours!

In a situation like this who insures the shared parts of the building then? Even if there's not a shared entry way or stairs there must be a shared roof?

Presumably each person in this case is the freeholder of their individual flat. So the roof would be the responsibility of the upstairs flat

Eek - talk about a disincentive to buy an upstairs flat! Although at least you're not going to get flooded by upstairs bathroom.

Yes roof is my responsibility, I paid for the new roof myself which was £8,000 but that’s irrelevant to the thread 😅. There are no communal areas, we each have our own front door.
Just to reiterate again, there is no joint insurance, no management company, no service charge etc.

Yup - this. Even without the freeholder / leaseholder issue, you aren’t liable, you don’t need to pay the excess and your insurance company won’t pay either for the reasons quoted.

Same happened to me.
The flat downstairs had to claim off of our shared building insurance. Her excess was £100. I of course got our pipework fixed

fyi, re-plastering the ceiling we were quoted £250-300. £1200 excess is one big lie. My contents insurance actually would have covered it and their excess was £450