AIBU to feel sad about how the internet's turned out?

[GordonBlue]

It could have been a truly amazing information and cultural exchange hub but instead it's a sewn up monetized abomination where people shout at and con each other.

I was going through some old papers today and found web pages I'd printed in 1997, back when I still thought if you wanted to read something again you had to print it. They were from two different discussion groups. One was about Fibonacci number sequence in nature, the other was about a numerical interpretation of Shakespeare's sonnets.

I also remember the early days of file sharing, and the sheer joy of finding music including music you hadn't heard for years, where you could tap into everything and no one owned anything, there were no adverts, none of it was buttoned down.

I dunno, I just feel really sad that that's how things used to be on the internet and now it's all porn/ red pill /fake news/limited characters angry crap. AIBU to think we've fucked this thing up? Or am I an old lady shouting at clouds?

You have a point OP

Well, the idea of world-wide communication has been around for a long time. I believe Samuel Morse sent the first telegraph in 1844, and of course there have been postal services of a kind since ancient times.

However, the first idea of the Internet as we know it could be attributed to J.C.R Licklider who talked of a global network of computers in which everyone could access information and data from any site. He referred to this as the 'Galactic Network'. This was in 1962, so it was a pretty radical idea in the middle of the 'Cold War'.

Then there was ARPANET which came to fruition in 1969, and had quite a lot to do with the United States Department of Defense. ARPANET laid down the technological foundations for the Internet, so the driving force behind the Internet was never quite as innocent as it seems.

Yet, the idea for an uncensored medium for free speech and the liberated expression of ideas and sharing of knowledge was embraced by the idealistic 'Hippies' of the seventies. and perhaps somehow, in the very early days of the Internet, we sort of believed that is what the Internet was.

Therefore, ideas about a wonderful information superhighway where art, culture, ideas and knowledge can be shared, and the need to provide and access information quickly for the purpose of defence were around long before the Internet entered the public domain. And of course, porn, dark content and harmful and offensive activities have always been part of society. The Internet, just provided a global audience and less traceable footprint.

By the way, I was introduced to the Internet in about 1995, when I was in my mid-thirties. I was engaged in research at the time, and I loved this new way of working. By today's standards, the Internet at that time was unreliable and limited, but the rate at which it has progressed is phenomenal.

I agree that it is easier for cultural exchange with the internet

I like to watch videos about artisans in Europe, China, Japan,Australia, South America, Arctic etc
I have learnt lots & intend to learn more

I love looking at art, historical artifacts & science too from all over the world

An improvement on Britannica Encyclopaedia

I remember the days of "Friends Reunited" which was before Facebook

No doubt there is porn, but it is not on my search list

However, some people are too connected to the Internet. Some people are now booking specific unconnected holidays & hobby classes to get away from the Internet

Same! I've been online since it started, never come across any unwanted porn.

Of course there is a massive dark side to the internet but there is also a great side- information at your fingertips (information is power) and communities for people to join if they cannot access outside clubs etc etc

The internet is just like anything - it has its uses and its disadvantages.

I remember as a kid walking to school in the 90s being flashed by this perv who was doing it around the area so I dont agree that all was innocent prior to the internet or that there was less harm. Abuse, bullying, and sexual harassment still went on, just in a different format.

Noone is forcing you to go online- it's your responsibility to adjust your behaviours online according to how it makes you feel so if you dont like it then dont use it. I dont know why you'd be continuing to do something thats making you feel so apparently negative.

By today's standards, the Internet at that time was unreliable and limited, but the rate at which it has progressed is phenomenal

It was unreliable. But it wasn't curated like it is now. Curated by algorithms and memory holes, by people who hide info behind paywalls and of course the trackers which only feed you the same regurgitated shite that they think will help empty your wallet or your head.

Same! I've been online since it started, never come across any unwanted porn.

I remember when I used to do Facebook Scrabble.

I stopped because overnight almost every person requesting a new game had a penis as their profile.

I stopped because overnight almost every person requesting a new game had a penis as their profile

Yes, it does happen. But plenty of people get sent dick pics, does that mean cell phones are bad?

@FrothyCothy I'd also love to look at the Instagram account you mentioned if you don't mind sharing the name? Sounds fascinating

The point was that pretending that by being pure of heart and never searching for porn and inferring that people who have seen it brought it on themselves is untrue.

You are taking one point there and pretending it is about another.

How 'bad' cell or mobile phones are is a whole other thread.

@Alwaysgothiccups
I think you didn't make the most of early internet and that your experiences are not typical.

And for @Ivyy

https://www.instagram.com/joshuacharow?igsh=a2Y2MW5yZDJhbWhp

His book is called ‘Loft Law: the last of NYC’s artist lofts’ but there’s lots of extracts on his page to dip into

If you click on posts he’s tagged in you’ll bring up a load more short vids and images too, like this one https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7KG-acxl3C/?igsh=a2hnY3dmOG5uZXBt

I remember when it didn't matter what you searched for, the top answers were always porn sites! And no, that wasn't based on my search history - it was just the way it was. I used to try and search for the most banal things possible, to see if I could find anything that wouldn't result in a porn result - not possible. Edited to add: That's not the case now - safe search filters work well, and it's been years since a search returned any nefarious links for me.

There is so much amazing information on the internet these days - I think it is incredible. I learn languages, watch science and maths videos on YouTube, ask ChatGPT to break down complex subjects for me. I can also attend conferences virtually, which really reduces air miles. In the early days, finding information was difficult, but it's now far simpler. Yes, it has its negatives - I hate the increased commodification of pretty much everything - but overall, I think it is a huge positive.

The rule of the internet is that anywhere where what you see is curated by an algorithm optimised to drive clicks is going to make you feel sad, angry, powerless, depressed… because that’s the content you click on, so most of the content is like that, and so you feel it’s all consuming.

Also, those same algorithms are grouping you with people who like what you like, you’re all seeing the same stuff, forming and reinforcing the same opinions and compounding the problem. This is what happens when your main economic driver is advertising.

The trick is to find places that are uncurated, or at least curated by humans and not by statistics. Reddit is good (if you find the groups you’re interested in and not the horrid toxic ones); old style forums for niche interests are great, but tend to be a bit untrafficked. Facebook groups for your interests are great; just avoid the infinite scroll.

Another great trick is to search, not scroll. The scroll is pure poison. If you use searches then you still get an auto selection, but at least it’s a selection in your interest area.

You’re not wrong about the optimism and shared information of the early years of getting online, OP.

A hopeful and open-hearted time - I talked to many of my favourite authors back when having a website was rare and they had time to actively engage with readers online.

Judy Blume sent me a message when my first child was born, for heaven’s sake. I was swapping secondhand CDs with a crime writer I read.

I still think it's a truly amazing information and cultural exchange. I think there are plenty of intelligent people on it. I think MN is amazing, too. I discuss lots of specialist topics right here. In the What We are Reading forum, for instance.

I think it’s much the same good/bad wise just bigger, there’s plenty of lovely spaces with people just discussing things that interest them or hobbies and back in the day there was still troll sites and hate filled sites.

Speak for yourself

There's a certain irony of using MN to say the Internet is bad.... already we've had one veiled transphobic message for example. Whereas the Internet has done wonders for helping LGBT children understand who they are and give them support, especially when they live in communities where it isn't safe to be openly gay. It's given them a space to learn about safe gay/lesbian sex because this is a topic which isn't taught in schools but there are other measures for safe sex (beyond penetrative sex) that they need to be aware of.

It gives people access to things they can't access locally - yes the Internet can be censored but so are libraries and newspapers. American schools, for example, take books out of schools all the time for being "unsuitable" just because they don't align with their values. The Internet gives a much freer access to these books (things as banal as Harry Potter sometimes!)

There's a lot of fake news out there but there's also a lot of learning and information about topics most people would never look at otherwise. Tutorials for specialist topics and interests. The ability for people to teach themselves crafts and skills because the videos are right there.

You can access shows which were shown once on TV and would never have been seen again but someone discovers it, starts talking about it and suddenly it's popular again. Streaming services are ridiculous in their number but you can discover some forgotten gems, relive old favourites.

And those "intelligent" discussion? Still happen. About everything from Shakespeare to Doctor Who. You just need to know where to look.

The Internet is like all things, useful if you use it properly.

The internet was an opportunity to better ourselves and while there are good things in there, it mostly just brought out the worst in our species rather than the best. Depressing, as it's like every amazing opportunity humanity has to be better, we just fall short.

I think comments like the OP's are a bit like shouting 'burn all the books' because Playboy and Loaded exist.

As someone said, don't scroll, actively search for what you're interested in. Plenty of healthy debate out there. Also instant bank account checking, working from home, emails, academic journals, current affairs, shopping, education. All available at the click of a browser.

I like it more now - I like the special interest groups eg on Facebook I follow groups that are into creating certain types of art, for the type of pet that we have, music groups for bands i like, you can find instructions and advice to do anything on you tube- from art techniques to diy, fixing anything. Podcasts for anything you are interested.in, films, music, art, science discussions, debate, games from chess to big gamer type games to daft puzzle games.sports if that's your thing. And I enjoy shopping and organising trips etc on the Internet.

Yes, wasn't everything better when it was for proper people like us and not ordinary people like them.

The internet was a big money pit back in the day. The original network was built and paid for by academia.

Now it's vastly bigger. A global infrastructure of high capacity communication links, data centres and the people to operate it doesn't come cheap. And all the websites can't be operated by some bloke called Gavin who does it in his spare time with people contributing free content forever. The ads and all the other commercial aspects pay for all that, so that you can piggyback on it for all the other nice things it provides mostly for 'free'.

All the other problems you cite are just holding up a mirror to society. Nothing really to do with the internet itself.

Or only people from rich developed countries. Now even people from rural India can access the Internet to find out how to get a Covid vaccine. The horror!

We should go back to the good old days when only certain people had access to discuss metaphysics.