Tracing stillborn babies - feeling stunned

[Nubnut]

I just read an article about how until the 1990s stillborn babies were often taken away from their parents without them seeing them: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/may/28/you-dont-forget-as-a-mother-the-british-parents-finally-reunited-with-their-stillborn-babies

I knew this already having listened once to an interview with an elderly woman who was just sent home with some drugs to stop the milk and told to move on. I remember listening to the interview and having to sit down on the floor because of the idea of it. I have not experienced it myself but it is something everyone can partly understand, and I think it is an issue that concerns us all.

I find it really hard to understand how and why this could have happened. Especially because it is not a classic case of it being a men's world and not thinking through the experiences of women, because in this case, we're talking about maternity wards staffed by a majority of women. How could this be allowed to happen?

My heart is breaking for these parents.

Does anyone who has any experience of the sector have any more thoughts about why this happened? I feel so stunned and I would like to understand more.

I think this is a very convincing explanation. Thank you.

Yes, you are right about "choice", I put it badly, and you are right that it is important how we talk about pregnancy and choice. But the point about the impact of contraception culturally remains.

women who worked were often sacked from their jobs when their pregnancy became noticeable.

My nan worked in a munitions factory (1930's and 40's) and was sacked when she was pregnant with my mum, my great grandmother lived with her at the time and looked after my mum from 6 weeks old so that my nan could be re-employed in the factory, she was again sacked before my uncle was born and didn't go back to work afterwards. This was still happening in the 60's (mum was sacked by woolworths for being pregnant) and early 70's.

Women were just less valued because of the fact that only women could get pregnant and would need time off. There were no maternity rights.

It was how the world worked then, thankfully we've moved since then.

Same with stillbirths, neonatal death, disabilities etc.

And that’s your personal view. Some people never get over the loss of their baby

@NeverDropYourMooncup That’s so very beautifully explained x

I lost a baby DD at 32 weeks in 2001. She was diagnosed with a lethal medical condition at 30 weeks after we had been told at 20 weeks she had a relatively minor abnormality which needed an operation after birth but was otherwise completely healthy. This was confirmed with an amniocentesis.

A very rare condition was diagnosed when I insisted on a scan at 30 weeks as I’d felt reduced movement and instinctively knew something was wrong.

We were advised to terminate immediately but could not agree to. We already felt so protective of her after worrying about her having to have an operation as a new born and if she’d be in pain, then being told to kill her! I went into early labour due to stress.

I had to attend at least 3 consultant appointments in the usual ante natal waiting room despite being told my baby was going to die. That was so hard and cruel being with other mums excitedly sharing due dates etc.

We got to give her a proper funeral but after initially being told we could keep her with us overnight (she was born at 9.38pm), a metal box was brought in a an hour or so after she was born, placed on my bed and she was put in it and taken away. We were misinformed apparently. We did argue a bit but were told we couldn’t keep her. She was perfect and died at birth so it wasn’t to do with decomposition. We were allowed to visit her the next morning in the mortuary before we went home.

I think that was just my hospital as other women I’ve spoken to were able to keep their babies with them overnight in that era. Extremely traumatic seeing her placed in that metal box and the lid put on knowing she was being put in a fridge as it goes against all your instincts that you don’t want your baby alone in the dark and to be cold.

Along with not being given anything to help dry up my milk supply as they said it was better to let it dry up naturally. Nothing worse than the feeling of ‘empty arms’ (your body knows you’ve given birth and thinks you should have something in them) and painful milk engorged breasts.

I really hope other women don’t have my experiences today.

Yes and I’ve lost one but it still doesn’t change the fact that I’m not going to waste energy on practices that changed 30 years ago.

That happened to me in 2000. Only I was the one who had lost their child.

You absolutely do it all the time. The majority of your posts are ridiculous and rude.

Ok dearie

I lost my 4th at 22 weeks, I didn't want to see her as I didn't want that image in my head. I also declined the kind offer of taking footprints because I thought that would be a horrible job for the midwives. Ditto declining a post mortem.
My baby had been dead for about a week before I gave birth (being sent home to go into labour naturally after being given the news still stuns me, I expected them to do something!) and in my head I had a decomposing baby inside me, it was the last thing I wanted to see.
I don't regret my choice. I had 3 healthy children and that one just wasn't meant to be. I'm a very pragmatic person though.

I certainly don't mean disabled children aren't loved, just the same as babies who are tfrm are very much loved and wanted babies.

If the baby was left to die it probably means their condition wasn't compatible with life, of if they could have survived it would have put horrendous strain on the family. And affected that families ability to care for their other children

Support for families with disabled children is still dire, back I'm thinking 60s 70s and earlier it was probably even worse. If a family couldn't cope there were big old asylums which were often full of abuse.

You're not wrong, but she's not playing with a full deck. Just leave her to it.

I'm glad my disabilities are invisible and untestable in utero... many would have had me killed as a 'burden'.

Its abhorrent people still think so abelist.

Many of my friends or their children have 'abort-able' medical conditions from Spina bifida to Down syndrome many others have non testable things like Autism. Its easy for healthy people to sit there and accuse those of us who are different as 'suffering' but we are not, we are just as entitled to life and health care as anyone else.

People need to remember no matter how 'healthy' they currently are now most people will end up with health issues or disabilities at some point in life. It doesn't mean their value or want to live instantly stops.

Look at people who go to literal hell and back for cancer treatment just at a chance of surviving, will/fight to live is not linked to 'health'.

Also some people might not know but 'live abortions' still happen where babies are left to die naturally. They are babies earmarked for abortion after 24 weeks who where born alive after induction but then left to die naturally sometimes taking days until they starve/freeze to death. Its not a 'historic' as people think.

It has happened at least 27 times in Australia. There has been human rights cases fought over it as its against the Human rights conventions but still happening.

As a student nurse in the early 70’s if you wanted to get married and continue nursing you had to get Matron’s permission, if you were pregnant you stopped working or were dismissed and very few nurses returned to work after having children.
This had changed by the late 70’s when I married.

Yes, I was born in 1985.

@triballeader You're amazing and you will have made a huge difference to people's lives! 👏🏼 👏🏼 👏🏼
Those tiny moses baskets and clothes will have helped enormously xxxxxxx

It happened because the culture was least said soonest mended, and if it was down played then it was better for the mother. Recognising it as the death of a child would have been thought to encourage grief and make more of it than necessary when the best thing would be to jolly the woman along so she could recover quickly and try again. Also many of the practices encouraged today, holding, bathing, dressing and spending time with the baby would have been seen as unhealthy and macabre.

I have had two TFMRs for what are considered a 'grey' diagnosis. My two were on the 'very severe' side of the spectrum and likely wouldn't have survived to birth, or lived long after (with or without major and continuous invasive medical procedures. Their life expectancy was short and painful although I have no doubt they would have brought so much joy too.

When you're using emotive language like "many would have had me killed as a burden", please, and I say this gently, think of the women here who have had to make the choice (and it's not really a choice) to let go of their precious, loved, wanted babies due to a diagnosis made in utero.

I can only speak for myself, but I did it because I didn't want them to suffer, and I couldn't watch them die a slow and agonising death. Our decision was made with love at the heart and soul of it. I live with the loss of them every day.

This happened to my grandma. She had a baby girl in 1950s New Zealand, who was either still born or died shortly after birth, I'm not exactly sure of the details. Anyway the baby was whisked away and my gran was never allowed to see her or know where she was buried.

Many years later when my lovely, sweet aunt was an adult she asked my gran if she wanted her to try to find the baby's grave and my gran said yes.

My grandma finally got to visit her firstborn child's grave for the first time when she was in her 70's.

I had a miscarriage four years ago and was sent to the antenatal rooms for a scan.
it was devastating.
i ended up having a d and c because it didn’t complete naturally and the nurse patted me on the shoulder and told me there would be plenty more babies. That was the first time I had been pregnant in six years of not using contraception.
not the same but there is still a road for materinty services to travel.

She took it very matter of fact that these babies were never meant to be, didn't give them names, doesn't regret not having a grave for them and struggles to relate to current culture on baby loss. And honestly as the surviving child I'm glad I was never in their shadow growing up.

I was fairly old before I found out about my brother, and it wasn't direct. She was comforting someone else and I think she 'forgot' I was stood next to her. As the youngest of the three surviving children I did sometimes have thoughts about my own existence and would I have existed had he not passed away.

I know a family who's first child was stillborn, the subsequent children are very much involved in their grief (for want of a better expression) and are regularly taken to the graveside to spend time with their sibling, having birthday celebrations etc. I understand that it is not my story to tell, but do wonder how the children will feel as they grow up.

On reflection of my own experience I do think that that would have made how I did feel even worse, maybe that I wasn't good enough or that I was being wished away.

I don't want to go back to it being a hidden thing, but I do think that overly involving subsequent children isn't good either.

I was 14 and miscarried in horrific circumstances. Partly alone. Partly with an abusive person present. After I was seen my a gp. There was no care, just efforts to keep this quiet. And also an air of “thank goodness you didn’t have his baby”.
I wear a little pink heart now, as all his children are girls. This was late 90s

Id imagine those who lost babies during pandemic must have had very lovely awful experiences too. Yes times have moved on but not enough. So sorry to everyone who shared their harrowing experiences.

They put me on a labour ward whilst I was miscarrying during covid, I was alone because of the social distancing rules and could hear newborn babies crying through the walls just after I’d handed my own miscarried baby over to a midwife. It still happens.

In the 70s,80s & 90s my late dad was a Funeral Director. Often when he picked up a deceased person a late miscarriage/ still birth/ neonatal baby would be tucked in with the adult. Not a lack of respect just a hope the baby wasn't on their own for their final journey.