AIBU to expect my 3yo DS to do what he's told occasionally?

[ohidoliketobe23]

Posting here for traffic. Name changed for this as probably going to get flamed for being a terrible parent or having unrealistic expectations of a toddler.

DS will be 3 in July and he's incredibly defiant and strong willed. He will not do a single thing we say and I'm at the end of my tether.

Everyday non negotiable stuff is a battle - brushing his teeth, getting dressed, eating meals, changing nappy. He has to be bribed or threatened to do any thing. I don't know if we're handling it wrong but when stuff needs to get done I don't know what to do. When I say bribed it's always something small like 'you get your chewy vitamin after you've brushed your teeth', and by threatened it will be 'you won't have any ice cream if you don't get dressed' sort of thing.

We went for lunch with a friend and her DS 4 the other day and he ran out of the open door of the restaurant repeatedly. Every time he was brought back, told firmly why it's dangerous, that we're staying for a while longer etc but he just kept doing it until we had to leave. We had all the distractions - colouring, new sticker book, even YouTube on my phone but nothing would keep him at the table. Maybe I expect too much of him in this instance, but friends don't seem to have this problem with their children of the same age.

Another example is potty training. We tried a few months ago and he would just not sit on the potty. He'd be dancing around ready to go, we'd calmly say 'I can see you need a wee, can you sit on your potty please' and he'd say no and wee on the floor a few minutes later. We never scolded this behaviour and chalked it down to him not being ready and parked it, but in hindsight I think the entire problem was that he wouldn't sit on the potty when he was told to.

Basically he won't do anything he's told and things that should be enjoyable for all of us are becoming a nightmare. Ie trips to the zoo getting derailed after meltdowns because he can't have two ice creams.

This extends to extreme meltdowns when told no. I'm talking up to 4 hours of constant screaming, crying and shouting. It's distressing for all of us but I feel like I have to hold boundaries or we'll never get anywhere.

Would be delighted to be told this is normal 3yo behaviour but it's not what I see around us and I feel like a failure. I'm heavily pregnant and don't know how I'll cope. Is this a phase? Am I doing it wrong?

Sympathies OP, that sounds really tough. If he literally won’t do anything he’s asked to, it sounds like ASD PDA. I would research this if you haven’t already.

Is he at nursery and if so, how does he behave there?
Does he spend time with other adults (Dad, grandparents, etc) without you and if so, how does he behave with them? (You've said "we" but would be useful to know if his behaviour is universal with all carers or if he can adapt his behaviour to people)

Thanks @Ace56 - I'll investigate.

@MojoMoon no nursery. My parents have him 3 days a week and he's the same with them as he is with us. They're generally aligned with us and our approach fortunately, but do bend to his whims a bit more to avoid the big meltdowns. Like they might leave a shop with a big toy because he refuses to put it back so they can get away without trouble.

We tried a childminder for about 3 months with very slow settling sessions but he was very upset the whole time and we decided it wasn't the right time for him. This was 6 months ago and this sort of behaviour has got a lot worse since then (especially with his language development) so can't say whether he was much different there.

We have a great DH who's so laidback and generally gets a lot less stressed by big reactions than I do, but he's struggling with the defiance too.

Yes how he is in other settings? Does he attend nursery or go to a child minders or is he at home with you full time?
3 year old (or nearly) can be very challenging..that's developmental, and some are simply more challenging than others, but that does sound very hard work.

Also bribing and threatening tends to be ineffective especially if it's a) constant b) not actually carried out. Negotiation is fine if you have the time and expectations are reasonable but bargaining all the time just gives him the power .
If he's like this in every setting... I'd be asking for a referral for assessment, in case there are neurodevelopment issues.. presumably as he's about to turn 3 he'll start nursery in September and they will pick up on things too.
If he's just like this with you/ family, then I'd be reading 'The Explosive Child' and having a think about how to try things differently ... and actually I'd be reading it anyway!

I work with children who have quite severe behavioural issues (and autism) and also care for my fairly feisty 3 yr old grandchild and we do not bribe. We have visual time tables for EVERYTHING (I have one at home too) so that the children can see exactly what we are doing, in what order.That helps with what is often underlying anxiety about the day. Won't get dressed? Then we can't go to soft play/park. Tantrum or true meltdown.. nothing to do except let it burn out and then have a chat and cuddle when it's through, but not back tracking on whatever sparked it in the first place.

It's REALLY hard parenting an explosive child (I had one too) and we cut back outings that were meant to be fun.. because they weren't ..for him or for us. I probably wouldn't have even considered going to lunch at that age ! However if prone to bolting anywhere, use a pushchair, reins, whatever.. and if others judge , so what?!

I don't think bribing or threatening will help. He'll get into the mindset of why should I do it if there's nothing in it for me.

With everyday non negotiables DS is told that this is something we do every single day, it has never been optional, you csn do it yourself/make it easy, or I will do it/you can make it hard. But it will get done.

My ex thinks he has to be the good guy so DS will love him. Won't even tell him off for hitting him repeatedly in the face. DS has started saying "I don't have to at daddies house" I say "well that's a shame becuase we do things to keep you healthy but at mummies house we have to do them" or "Albie doesn't have to wear a helmet" "I'm not Albies mum, I'm your mum it's my job to keep you safe. You can wear your helmet and ride your bike. Or don't wear your helmet, but you can't ride."
If he was running about a cafe he'd go in a high chair. Or strapped into the pushchair if you still have it. Or I'd sit him on my knee and hold him still.

Potty training, we don't leave till you've peed in the potty. End of discussion. I've locked us in the bathroom and just sat on the bath, we ain't going anywhere till you've peed, no further discussion. If he peed on the floor now we ain't going anywhere till you've wiped it up and peed in the potty.

Some things are non negotiable, so stop negotiating. I'm actually a very child centric, respond to the needs, not the authoritarian parent. But kids need boundaries, they need to know your word means something and they need to learn to do personal care every day.

Some children are very compliant and will do as they are told.

Others are less so.

I had two children who at this age were very non compliant.

I did not go to cafes with them. We met friends in the park so they could run around safely. I didn't take them shopping ever because it wasn't worth the meltdowns.

You do need to work with the child you have. Cut out as many activities he can't cope with as possible.

I found bribes and rewards very helpful - we used stickers. I also used a strong morning routine that rarely changed.

DS1 will also be 3 in July. And I find myself snapping “will you just do as you’re told?”

Honestly, a 4 hour meltdown doesn’t feel normal. It’s one of the things they ask on the two year check, so I would reach out to GP or health visitor. That’s not to say I have an angel child (far from), we get 45-60 minutes of completely irrational screaming. But not 4 hours.

Ill give examples of things that have helped, and maybe you can use them to get some ideas.

• jobs, every task becomes an important job. Eg “DS can you do a really important job for me?” He knows the bedtime routine so I can ask “what’s the next job?” And he will say “brushing my teeth”
• DS can dress himself now, it take ages, but sometimes leaving him to it and not making it a problem helps
• potty, people would say “just take him” and I’d be like “you’re kidding right?” If I take DS to the potty from say the kitchen he will walk back to the kitchen and say “I do it myself”. Stickers for each success worked for a bit. A book called Pirate Pete Potty also helpful and DS will tell me he’s going to “do a poo like pirate Pete” also having a baby in nappies when he’s a “big boy” helps
• does he have a favourite toy? These can calm tantrums better than anything when he’s sad.
• In the instance of two ice creams (or in our case 3 books at bedtime), consistency. You said no so never give in (you don’t say that you do but I’m just sharing). We had 2 weeks at bedtime where DS would demand a third story every night. Every night ended in a tantrum. But consistency paid off and now he knows it’s only 2. Less helpful when he’s taken an hour to get ready for bed and it’s long past the time he should be asleep because I can’t get away with only reading 1

In the example you gave of the restaurant, OP, you’re a saint. I’ve no idea how I’d deal with this. I’d probably leave tbh. But that sounds like what he wanted. It’s only happened to us once and we avoid situations like that where he’s likely to get bored but he didn’t try to leave. Cafes / pubs are a treat time. So he can have a babychino or squash (we don’t have at home) and a small cake (usually to share with me) or crisps. We also have a fidget toy that only comes out at cafes, and it keeps him occupied for a bit. It really depends on how long you’re there tbh.

I empathise with your pregnancy, I have an almost 1yo too.

I think @Octavia64 is right, my son was the same. He was the same in nursery and would often reduce me to tears because he was such hard work. By the time he was 4 he was literally like a different child, potty trained, speaking fluently (he had speech delay) and really intelligent, he’s 14 now and an absolute dream. So while it’s hard to not worry or to even take hope from others people’s experiences - it will pass. Sending you a handhold! Xx

Yes, I’d stop trying to do things that are clearly a nightmare and wholly unnecessary like a trip to the zoo.

In the park, use the reins or a pushchair when it’s time to leave. Mine was in reins well past three because he was a bolter.

And yes, I would have locked mine with me in the bathroom at that stage when I knew they needed to pee. And I did hold mine firmly and brush their teeth, and shove medicine in as well. Some things are non negotiable.

It sounds normal – apart from the 4hr meltdowns. Are they really continuous for 4hrs?

My twins were both like this (though twins often are because they rile each other up), and at 6yrs old they still aren’t great when they’re together.

One thing I learnt from a parenting guru type which really stuck was to never ask them to do something twice. Ask them once, if they don’t do it, remove the distraction (if there are any), take them by the hand and take them to do it. It makes it less likely that you will snap and less likely for them to dig their heels in because they are being asked and exerting their boundaries.

This sounds very normal to me for that age. One thing that sometimes helps, is giving them a choice where you can... blue bowl/pink bowl, this toothbrush or that one... gives them a bit more control.

Only potty train when you think he's ready, don't push it.

Yes, I agree with previous poster, if he's like that in cafes and restaurants, it's not worth the stress. Meet outside. Your friends child may be angelic now... but may not be a few years down the line.

My oldest was like your son. My youngest like your friend's, and boy, did he make up for it later. They are both big now, and lovely people. It's exhausting when you're going through it though.

Long meltdowns don't sound particularly 'normal'.

But it maybe a response to feeling out of control because by your own admission there is no clear 1 set of boundaries for him.

Start by setting expectations before you go.

"We will be going into Tesco. We can look at the toys but we aren't buying any. If you can do this without a tantrum we can look next time we go".

Then the next time you either deal with the tantrum because he didn't leave well or go to look at the toys again because he did having explained again about not buying.

It won't happen overnight but he'll soon learn.

Also if he dies have a long tantrum it may be that he misses out on other stuff. Explain to him. We didn't have time to do X because .....

Perhaps use visuals. Set a visual schedule of all the things he needs to do in the morning.

There may or may not be underlying send. But until you have very clear strict boundaries without bribes that everyone is sticking to you'll not be clear what the underlying cause of the behaviour is.m

Thanks so much for all of your thoughtful replies. Lots to think about here but really helps to feel like I'm not alone in this!

Will read through and reply properly later when I've got another pair of hands on DS!

@ohidoliketobe23

My DD didn't eat. She went to nursery and thrived. I know it costs money but he needs to go to nursery. You need to see what professionals think because school is looming and he will be very difficult there. So you need professionals in a nursery to see if there's a concern or not. If he gets upset, too bad now. He's upset with you. Bite the bullet.

Have you considered nursery, part time with the free hours, starting in September? Even if you have grandparents doing free childcare, 3 is the age to get them ready for school.
A half day slot at a nursery attached to a primary school might be best and they will have the staff to help identity any issues, suggest mitigation strategies for you to try and start you on referral pathways if that is deemed necessary.

(But it might not be necessary! He is still young)

Some other things I haven't mentioned which are driving me slightly insane and are likely related: he repeats himself literally 100s of times, like right now he wants to go and 'play in the car' (which we've never done) and we've said no, so now he's just repeating 'I want to go in the car' over and over and over again, getting gradually more stressed out. I'm not sitting in the car in the pouring rain and we won't give in so here we go.

The other thing is he's argumentative/contrary. Ie we often cuddle with my top off (he was bf until I got pregnant and my milk dried up) but I will say 'we can cuddle booby but please don't play with my nipples, it hurts mummy', then he'll argue that it doesn't hurt relentlessly. It's even small stuff like if I say it's a nice day, he'll say it's a horrible day (which sounds quite funny when I write it down but Jesus it's draining when it's constant).

Anyway in response to some replies...

I know we've got to stop the bribes/threats. It's so hard when you're in the thick of it to make it temporarily more difficult but I do understand that our lack of boundaries is likely making this worse.

@Nottherealslimshady I agree re the non negotiables and we've got to start just doing them and stop the whole charade around getting him to agree to it gently because it's not working. It's definitely harder with other things though, like if he was running round a cafe there's no way I'd be able to wrestle him into a pushchair or highchair physically, and he certainly wouldn't just sit there. We've had this problem since he was very young. He's climbed out of every highchair he's ever been in, or if strapped in then trashed so much it's dangerous. Same goes for sitting him on my knee, he'd just kick off and struggle out - no matter what I had to distract him. I think his issue at tables is largely down to him being completely uninterested in food! Same goes for locking him in the bathroom... we'd could be in there for hours with him screaming and I do fear creating negative associations with things like potty training. I don't want to come across as defensive here because I'm genuinely taking it on board, just trying to explain the gravity of his kick offs!

@Sonolanona thanks for your reply - I'll definitely check out The Explosive Child.

@MojoMoon we've got a place at a lovely local pre-school to start part time in September but he's got to be potty trained before he can go so that's kind of hanging over me. Also with baby due in July I feel worried it'll be too much change for him in short succession and make things worse. But a lot can change in a couple of months so all being well he'll be off then and I do think it'll help him a lot!

You let him play with your boobs? Just no. You are going to have to say no and weather these storms. Who on earth does this? With his repeating what he wants, just leave him in a safe space and put on the radio. Or take him to your GP.

He needs to go to a private nursery where they change nappies. Your new baby will cause him more issues. I feel for the baby and you. So do get him in a nursery.

Ugh three. I couldn’t wait to get out of terrible twos but THREE.

Actually there is hope. Ds is three and a half and is human again. I told him to get off a bouncy castle yesterday (his time was up) and he gave me the Look and went to go back so I repeated myself more firmly and he did as he was told. Even I was shocked 🤣

Its normal. I had this. ‘Ooh look, Bluey is on!’ IT’S NOT BLUEY. Repeating himself endlessly - ‘mummy I want a banana’ - sorry there aren’t any but would you like an apple or cheese? ‘Mummy I want a BANANA!’ X 50!

Its normal. The running thing I tend to find is when they just want to wind you up and I used to tense up and it made life worse.

I have a climber too, he has never liked high chairs. Also not hugely motivated by food. I do think you’re putting too much pressure on both of you with the potty training though. It can be a long road <eyes DS>

A child can't be excluded from a nursery or pre school for not being clean & dry. It doesn't matter whether it's private or part of a school. The Early Years department at your local authority will be able to advise you.

There are several indicators of autism in what you have written so I would bear that in mind for the future.

Read up on PDA and I’d suggest using the approaches recommended there. It doesn’t mean that he has PDA but it’s often a good way to get a child to feel they have control and are choosing to do what you want them to do.

You see this is where MN is interesting as that doesn’t look like PDA at all to me: it looks like a three year old with a heavily pregnant mother. I’m not diagnosing and by all means bear it in mind but just sometimes we can want to jump to conclusions that aren’t necessarily correct.

He sounds a PITA. Sorry, but he sounds an absolute nightmare!

im very surprised your parents are willing to look after him as often as they do.

why are you cuddling with your top off, it’s inappropriate, he’s not a newborn.

you seem to be confused with the meaning of meltdown. What you’re describing is tantrum.

stop bribing, you’re compromising with him. Tell him what he’s doing, and he’s doing it.

ive got 2 children, never had a behavioural issue with them, and one is Neurodivergent.

you need to sort him out and sharpish, otherwise as he gets older he will make your life hell.

ive got 2 children, never had a behavioural issue with them, and one is Neurodivergent.

Good for you. My son is autistic, has violent meltdowns that nobody has given us any real help with except to tell us we're doing everything right. Which is not helpful when you're being punched and bitten. Fortunately a more appropriate school setting has helped DS regulate better, but he was lucky to get that place and I don't know what would have happened otherwise.