To vent? Feeling like a ‘fourth wheel’

[ComingUpTrumps]

I’ve just been on a holiday with some friends, and although I’ve enjoyed the holiday overall, I also feel a bit flat tbh.

There are 4 of us altogether in this group of friends, and we met through at a languages social organised by our work.

The 4 of us all have a European language in common. 2 of the 4 are native speakers, 1 speaks it almost like a native speaker and I speak it well but often make silly mistakes and don’t practise it that often, so am not fluent yet.

Since meeting at the social, we’ve known each other for a couple of years and have met up regularly for coffee and cake and stuff. We arranged to go on holiday last year for a weekend, and booked the flights/accomm etc. However I found out I couldn’t go at the last minute due to a family emergency, so the 3 of them went together, which worked out for everyone and it seems they all had a really good time.

We then booked this current holiday a couple of months ago, for a week together. I was really looking forward to it, as I’ve enjoyed spending time with the others so far, and we had a lunch together with us/partners/the neighbours of one of the women - hosted by one of the women at her house - which I had fun at too.

However, I’m not sure I’ve really enjoyed spending time with the group this holiday very much. I think they’re bonded as a 3, but I don’t feel like we’ve really bonded as a 4. They’re all perfectly nice to me, and I’ve had fun doing activities with them on the holiday, but I feel like a bit like a ‘fourth wheel’ tbh.

During the holiday, none of them have shown an interest in me or my life, or even asked how I’m feeling. I’m quite curious - not nosey, as I wouldn’t say I’m indiscreet or that I pry or anything - and I tend to ask people lots of questions - but part of the conversation, in a balanced way, ofc - but none of them have asked me about my life or included me in anything. Two of the women are direct and extroverted, and they tend to take the lead on stuff, and the other is a bit quieter.

Also, this holiday is in a place that’s very popular with British people, and the other 3 didn’t seem to know that beforehand. I did mention it when we were booking, and it didn’t seem to matter at that point. However, they really noticed it this week and one of them in particular has been saying how she’d wanted to use this holiday to get away from British people and have a break from them (jokingly) but hasn’t managed to. To be fair, we haven’t actually seen or spent time with any British people, and have managed to ‘avoid’ them, but it’s made me feel a bit sort of defensive, if that makes sense - although I haven’t shown that to them outwardly or anything. It’s just made me
feel again like I don’t fit in with the 3 of them.

It sounds strange to write, as they’re all perfectly nice, but it’s made me think that actually we don’t really have much in common apart from the fact we all work in the same company and speak the same language.

I’ve just felt a bit like wallpaper on this trip tbh. It’s like they can take me or leave me, and it’s made me feel quite sad. I thought we worked well as a group of 4 before the holiday, and we’ve all been supportive of each other, but I just feel like we have nothing in common (me and the.3 of them, I mean). We speak in a mixture of English and our other common language.

All 3 of them speak fluent English, as they’ve all lived in England for several years now for work and they all have English partners. I’m single, whilst the 3 of them have partners (who we’ve all met and have got on well with so far). Whilst I’m a native English speaker, I’ve felt out of my depth quite a bit this week when speaking the common language, and it’s felt mentally taxing tbh.

Because of this, and because I know I’ve made mistakes speaking in our common language this week, I’ve felt unconfident and unsure with them, which has brought out my ‘people pleasing’ side and made me seek reassurance from them, which has sort of pissed them off (understandably) and the dynamic between us has just been a bit meh.

On a positive note, I’ve never practised the language more than this week, which has proved to me that I can get by in it very well and I’ve learned a lot, but I feel like what’s in the point in even trying to speak it with them when they all speak excellent English. I feel like I’ve shown ‘resilience’ this week in many ways, but I feel like it hasn’t really been a break for me, if that makes sense.

This might sound dramatic, but I’m sort of re-evaluating the friendship tbh. It’s not always easy when you go on holiday with your friends of course, but I’ve gone on holiday with other friendship groups in the past and it’s mostly been really lovely and easy. This one has felt strange as I just feel like I’ve been ignored and left out - not in a malicious way though, which makes it even more strange and frustrating. Maybe we’re just not compatible - I don’t know.

I guess I’m partly writing this to vent and to ask for reassurance tbh. Thanks if you’ve made it this to the end of the post haha.

Thanks! I appreciate it. The point I hope I’ve been trying to make in my posts so far is that actually it’s not the fault of the people I’m with but more the fact that I’m feeling out of my depth because of the challenges I’m having in using our common language to communicate.

Maybe they want a break from doing all the stuff they do in their every day lives such as translating, feeling surrounded by another culture etc. With people from your own culture, you can just 'be' you know, you don't have to explain. If they have to explain or adapt to you, then it's not really a break is it?

Totally agree with this.

They've not been very understanding, but you've had a snippet of what it's like for non-native speakers of English coming to the UK.

In English I'm funny. I have 2 EU languages, neither of which I'm fluent in, but can function in. I'm far more uncertain in them as I can offend people without realising. I told a younger relative once that a crocodile has a large penis and an older man that he has a big arse. Now, that sounds funny (and is in hindsight) but the words I'd used were similar to the correct ones, but I'd mispronounced them. Do you think after that I'm not very careful about the exact pronunciation of new words?! Imagine that in job interviews, making friends etc. Then there's xenophobia and having your intelligence judged by how fluent you're (not) in a language.

I'm not wanting to diminish your experience. More add some framing, also for all the comments terms who seem quick to judge these people yet I'm guessing aren't living abroad, speaking a foreign language daily (and understanding the fatigue that that often involves).

The monosyllabic answers though and snide comments weren't necessary. I wonder if you open this topic though with them, ask how it was when they first visited/came to Britain and how it was when they first had to work in English all the time, if you'll see another side to them.

I find your story very interesting and I am sorry you have had a difficult week. I think feeling under pressured to speak this second language well and thinking before you speak has a lot to do with you feeling separate from the group.
what I find particularly interesting is how you describe your experience is how I think a lot of Neuro diverse people with social communication issues in everyday life communicating with others. Being very aware of what they are saying and whether it would be acceptable in a wider group / whether the group accepts their social errors or makes minor comments etc so they don’t feel part of the group and feel like a 4th wheel as you describe.
i know you appreciate these women’s bluntness but I think they have crept into being rude. Today I hope you can for your self esteem lightly pull them up on this and say “that came across rude - did you mean to be rude”

Op I think they sounded very rude. It seems like that other 3 are very much similar so I would just leave them to it and slowly distance yourself. No need to fall out, just keep the interactions with them on your terms. That's just life, you meet a group of people who you have something in common with and that's about it. Of that group you might just click with one person and lose the rest, that's fine too. If they aren't speaking to each other like this then they are not treating you fairly. For that alone I would just distance myself after the trip.

Yes I agree with this. I think this is part of the problem. I haven’t been able to fully relax because I don’t have a language in common with them, really, and even in English I don’t know. I just genuinely feel like we haven’t got much in common and I feel a bit frustrated they never ask me questions. I don’t know, it’s just how I feel.

I think the people talking about culture and fluency have it; also the comment about escaping British people is probably spot on.
I used to be fluent in a second language and am now due to lack of use close but not quite. I remember how I lost myself due to being restricted in what I could express and how frustrating it was at times. The 'jokey' juice comment really resonated as well as the reaction.
If they all share a different culture and language that's huge in terms of someone else who doesn't easily slotting in.

Even without the language/culture differences going on holiday with friends can be eye opening. A friend went away with a good friend of hers - my friend was newly separated and this other woman had been very supportive. Afterwards my friend said never again! She saw a whole different side to this woman. They are still friends but she has a better measure of this woman.
I have friends I've been in holiday and it's worked well. Sure they have some peculiarities (as I'm sure I do) - one for example just flatly refused to pay for anything more once her self imposed budget had run out (she has the money), so it was either let her go hungry/ not come out or the rest of us pay for her. But I know a couple women who I'm sure it would not work out! I'd still be their friend though.
You have recognised the limitation of this friendship group. Up to you how much more time you want to spend with them moving forward.

The comment about not being a dictionary wasn't fair enough at all, it was rude af.

You say they are direct and you know where you stand with them but actually I would disagree. Direct would be " I don't want to spend time translation for you when I'm on holiday, please use Google translate instead". "I'm not a dictionary" and "Google is your friend" are very much indirect.

I think a weeks holiday was too much for this acquaintanceship. You’re not solid friends but people drawn together by one thing (a language) the bonding between the ones who are from the country will always be stronger. Being an expat is bonding in its own right. It’s not unfair of them to want to chill out in their mother tongue exclusively on holiday and not always be thinking in two languages.
I think you should chalk it up to experience and continue meeting them for coffee to practice the language but not try to force more.

It doesn’t sound like much of a holiday, maybe you can reframe it as a language learning experience and just move past it.

For some reason they feel comfortable being really very rude to you- the Google comment is very snarky and immature, not understandable at all. I’m not surprised you don’t feel part of the gang but honestly, they sound tedious. Don’t waste too much energy on trying to figure them out.

As others have said - I just think you’re not compatible. Sometimes, people you can happily spend a couple of hours with are not people you can happily spend a week with. I doubt it’s intentional on their side, just as it’s not intentional on yours.

honestly, there's no one I'd go on holiday with any more except my other half, because everyone else drives me nuts.

people always expect different things on a holiday even when it sounds like you're on the same page.

the only holidays i've enjoyed with friends or relatives are the ones where we basically all did our own things and met back up for breakfast or occasional meals or when we happened to want to do the same thing at the same time

It’s ok to feel how you feel. You’ve had to be on it and keep it and that’s hard work for you in itself.

They just aren’t your holiday people. And that’s ok.

You don’t need to change who you are - be yourself. Have a great last few days.

Thanks very much all - I really appreciate your take on this. I don’t think I’ll go on holiday with them again tbh, but I’m happy to just meet up with them socially as I think that will still be enjoyable.

Yes exactly - I agree with this

They don't sound nice and you sound lovely. Let the friendship die a death and find some nicer friends.

Completely agree with this and that’s what I’ve been trying to think of it as. It has been useful as a language learning experience, but not especially relaxing.

One of the girls in particular is quite sort of assertive, verging on forceful, and it just pisses me off. I find it really exhausting.

She is quite self absorbed and talks about herself a lot, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it just gets quite tiring quite quickly. She has quite a demanding and high profile job, although quite junior, which she enjoys in some ways but not others (like with any job), but she always talks about the bloody job and then clams up because she can’t give many details away because the job is in such a high profile place.

Especially as we’re all in the same place 24/7 on this holiday (but have had 2 separate bedrooms, thank god, so 2 to a room and I’ve shared with one of the other girls).

Which country/ies are they from?

Agree, I have felt that relief too. When it finally clicks "this doesn't work, and that's okay" it's very freeing!
They are mean girls OP. Yes they might naturally be more direct but making people feel left out and unwanted is rude wherever you come from.

The native speakers in our common language are from Spain and the other friend is from Italy. I’ve not visited Spain much and never lived there, and don’t have much experience of the culture, but all 3 of them are quite impatient people, which I really just don’t like as a trait in general.

Yes I agree - it is quite a freeing feeling.

I think they’ve also picked up traits/habits from their partners (or maybe they were always like that). When I met their partners, I really liked one of them - he’s very chilled, funny and easygoing - but I didn’t get as good a feeling about the orhwr 2. One of them is very sarcastic and has a very sarcastic sense of humour, which I wasn’t a huge fan of, and the last one is quite controlling with his girlfriend (one of my friends) and can be veeery ‘dominant’ with her. He showed this side once when we all met up and it was horrible.

I don’t think anyone is at fault here, you’re just coming up against cultural and linguistic differences far more strongly than you do at home, and because you’re together on non-native territory for a longer period than ever before.

I also think you’re coming up against the fact that people are different in different languages, even when fairly fluent — you aren’t fluent in the lingua franca of this week, and the others are. You’re making errors and seeking reassurance, which almost certainly affects your social self, perhaps for the worse. Chalk it up to experience.

I'm a second language learner and none of the natives I know have ever made me feel like this. The only person who ever had a but of an attitude about my second language was actually a British person who gave me a really snappy, rude response when I asked her the word for something in the second language. It was actually really humiliating, and not one of the native speakers I've encountered have ever been more than anything but encouraging. I do think that holidays are a different context and can understand having an inner sense of frustration if there is a slower member of the group (normally me!) but it does need to be controlled for the sake of being a reasonable human being.

When you are learning a language and have enough to get by but aren't fluent, you can feel incredibly vulnerable, so I'm sure that didn't help at all. I had one of my babies in the second language country and remember just shouting out the word for 'pain' after I'd had the baby. I felt weak and tired and nobody spoke English. It's so complex.