Irish PM: ‘We see Hamas as an illegal and disgusting terrorism organisation’

[pandarific]

The speeches announcing recognition of the Palestinian state were SO GOOD. I cried through most of it. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/live/bm81x9kFAKU?si=69O9Oke9TMFSM39o

Takeaways from Irish speech:

• ‘We see hamas as an illegal and disgusting terrorist organisation’
• Palestine has a right to democratic leadership
• This paves a way to a political path to peace
• For moderates in both countries, for decent people in both countries
• Palestine has a right to exist securely
• Israel has a right to exist securely
• We need a two state solution
• A political path to peace

And repeatedly - ‘The Palestinian people are not Hamas’

We shall see. They don´t have stable land (even less now) or stable leadership (just a bunch of terrorists voted in a decade or so ago). Who will foot the bill to keep this "nation" in existence? The U.S? the U.K? the E.U? All? None? And bearing in mind these few months won´t exactly have created more "moderates" in the region, do you think they will be voting in liberal democrats in future elections? If the winners of elections are again Hamas, whoever is head of this state, will they be presenting their credentials to those who recognise them as at the same level diplomats and politicians. Is the Irish or Norweigian or Spanish governement and Heads of State on the same level as Hamas? I am wondering many things and have many doubts. Our president (Spain) is spouting forth about this, he seems convinced, I am not.

It’s not much of a ‘free vote’ when the people who want you to vote for them (Hamas) are frankly paramilitaries with guns. That’s the point.

Actual legitimacy of the state can only help - Ireland has just publically pledged to do everything in its power to pave the way for legitimate recognition and democracy for the Palestinian people. Also the Tainiste just spoke about the legitimacy of the state requiring legitimate political representation. And that the Arab peace league are all behind making it happen too.

I DO think moderates and peacemakers will have been created, in the same way as they were throughout the NI conflict. I remember all the ‘Not in his/her name’ signs in the marches. That’s how the NI peace process happened - by recognising that cycles if violence and retribution leads nowhere, and this situation is the worst of all worlds.

I appreciate your doubts by the way - I have plenty myself. But it was wonderful to see an alternative way forward being presented

Would love to know the whys behind the YABU votes if anyone wants to share?

I find this announcement bizarre. Firstly it seems the way to get recognition and sympathy is to launch a war via a savage and barbaric terrorist attack on Israeli civilians. Most palestinians are very supportive of Hamas. If there was an election tomorrow hamas would win in the West Bank and Gaza, they are much more popular than the PA.

I also think Ireland is doing some kind of weird exorcism of their own ghosts here. The republicans of NI could only have dreamed of this kind of vocal support from Dublin during their fight for autonomy and freedom. No one condemned them more and sucked up to the British more than Dublin during the troubles, yet Dublin suddenly forgets to be neutral and falls over itself for a small number of people in a far off land who thoroughly support their current terrorist leadership.

What is it ? Cognitive dissonance? Who knows.

I have to ask how you know ‘most Palestinians are very supportive of Hamas’? That’s a WILD claim and not one you can possibly have any authority to make? There are 13 million Palestinians.

Ireland is doing it jointly with Spain and Norway, and more EU countries are poised to come on board.

Also, how exactly did Dublin ‘suck up’ to the British during the Troubles? By working through a multi year complex and ultimately successful peace process you mean..?

A new poll released by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research finds declining levels of support for Hamas in both the Gaza Strip and West Bank, though the percentage who believe the terror group’s October 7 onslaught was “correct” is virtually unchanged.
According to the survey, 71% of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank back the October 7 massacres in which in terrorists killed some 1,200 people and kidnapped 253 others, versus 72% who said so when the organization’s previous poll was published in December.
While the overall figure remained steady, support for atrocities increased from 57% to 71% in Gaza the past three months and dipped from 82% to 71% in the West Bank.

Along with Islamist group itself, respondents gave high marks to the Hamas leader in Gaza Yahya Sinwar over his conduct in the war, with 61% approving, though this was down some from 69% in December.
Among the other questions in the survey are who Palestinians would vote for if new parliament elections were held today. A plurality — 30% — say Hamas, followed by 14% for Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah movement, which was just below the 15% for none of the above. Six percent of respondents say they’ll back third parties while 36% won’t vote.

Worldwide population of those claiming Palestinian identity is estimated to be between 6 to 7 million people.

Also, how exactly did Dublin ‘suck up’ to the British during the Troubles? By working through a multi year complex and ultimately successful peace process you mean..?

This statement really took me back. Do you really believe this? Do you believe that Dublin was proactive in solving the horrific 30 year war in the north? OMG....
This needs a whole other thread and you think they were part of the solution........

I'm very interested to hear how you think the republic had no part to play in the NI peace process

I've heard chatter that migrants with certain sympathies see Ireland as a more attractive prospect due to all the public sympathy.

I'm sure that'll work out just fine.

Someone talking sense at last

What a bizarrely under-informed post. Maybe educate yourself quite a lot more on Irish history.

@lovelysoap the study you shared says support for Hamas is declining? And also, it focused on Gaza and the West Bank… Palestine isn’t solely those two areas?

Again, Hamas being in power is not the result of a democracy, because there isn’t one in any real sense of the world. If paramilitaries control the area you live it’s not exactly wise for your longevity and that of your family to go against them.

Do you really seek to convince us that you can see into the hearts and minds of millions of Palestinians and assume that ‘they’ are all Hamas supporters? Would you have said that Irish catholics during the troubles (‘they?’) are IRA supporters? I would like you to examine that please.

Old news @Foggyfield.

Anyway, what have migrants got to do with the proposition of a peaceful political solution to one of the most awful conflicts in recent memory..?

@OkPedro i would argue that they didn't and that history will not remember them well on this at all despite the Dublin bombings but i think that would de rail this thread. Maybe start one in craicnet as i think you will get some interesting perspectives.

@UntiltheGirl How so?

Op YANBU for your op. Completely agree with you (as an Irish woman)

However yabu to have any thread like this in AIBU . Mumsnet is not the most sympathetic to the Irish on the whole. Many here think we should stay in our box and remember our place and like to mansplain our history to us.

You said it was a wild claim to say that most palestinians support Hamas but according to palestinians it is c.70%, that's most. It is declining by 1% so arguably no decline at all and still very high.

The poll shows that Hamas would win an election now so that would be the result of democracy. I think you are in denial about how much Palestinians support Hamas and hate Israelis and Jewish people. About 5 million of people who identify as palestinian live in the west bank and Gaza so that is by far most of them.

I have in no way used my own opinions i am listening to a palestinian survey that seems to be widely respected.

I find it hard to compare the troubles to the situation in Gaza. Hamas is a branch of the MB and a proxy of Iran, it is very wealthy and worldwide organisation. The IRA obviously differ in many ways and yes they were well supported by irish catholics as were loyalist paramilitaries by their communities and the British army by British people. I see the two conflicts as very very different and probably for another thread.

pandarific 'Palestine isn't solely Gaza and the West Bank'.
Exactly where is Palestine if not those areas?

Peace has to start somewhere and a two state solution has to start somewhere. Hamas are disgusting. Israel’s retaliation is disgusting. Two separate countries developing and learning over time how to get along is the only realistic answer to this now.

@lovelysoap again all of the study is only talking about Gaza and the West Bank, not all of Palestine. And the point of this thread is about the recognition of a state.

I think you are in denial about how much Palestinians support Hamas and hate Israelis and Jewish people.

I promise that I am not. I am very very well aware that generational violence has sowed an immense amount of hate. However… unless a peace process is embarked on, then that hate remains and nothing changes and we remain in the worst of all worlds, dominated by hatred, killing and division between neighbouring peoples.

I posted the title of the thread, a direct quote from the Irish Taoiseach this AM on live tv where he said ‘We see Hamas as an illegal and disgusting terrorism organisation’ so as to be clear that this move is nothing to do with Hamas, and everything to do with the Palestinian nation, that those two things are not one and the same and treating them as if they are is wild.

This is a move to corroborate universal human rights and move to a viable political solution with respect and understanding on both sides of the conflict, not to legitimise killing.

@blackcherryconserve I wouldn’t be in any way an authority on that I’m afraid! I know it’s contested. My point was just that the Palestinian people do not equal Hamas.

Assuming that most people on this forum are British I wouldn’t expect a balanced view here.

I don’t really understand this. Most people already agree in a two state solution but who is going to implement that? Yes Hamas are likely in power by force but how will there be another leadership?