Irish PM: ‘We see Hamas as an illegal and disgusting terrorism organisation’

[pandarific]

The speeches announcing recognition of the Palestinian state were SO GOOD. I cried through most of it. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/live/bm81x9kFAKU?si=69O9Oke9TMFSM39o

Takeaways from Irish speech:

• ‘We see hamas as an illegal and disgusting terrorist organisation’
• Palestine has a right to democratic leadership
• This paves a way to a political path to peace
• For moderates in both countries, for decent people in both countries
• Palestine has a right to exist securely
• Israel has a right to exist securely
• We need a two state solution
• A political path to peace

Where else is this 'palestine' you speak of. Do you mean Jordan?
I disagree with a two state solution. So do the PA, Hamas and the vast majority of people who identify as being palestinian. They have all always been consistent about that.
I find it so arrogant that people think that is what they want and they will be told what they want and what to do, its patronising. People in the middle east are not stupid, far from it, they have a much deeper understanding of what is going on than we do. Listen to palestinians they don't want a two state solution never have, that's why they reject it.
Gaza was a self governing state. Look how that went. It was built into a huge terror state with the sole purpose of attacking Israel.
Israel have agreed and proposed two state solution before but i think they would be mad to do that whilst the population is so radicalised.
I think it is rather arrogant to think that Ireland has a jot of influence over events in the middle east.

Who are you talking about when you say 'most people'. Not one country in the middle east wants a two state solution.
Maybe Iran so they can have another terror state proxy as they had with Gaza.

I think you mean 'Britsplain'.

@lovelysoap I disagree with a two state solution. So do the PA, Hamas and the vast majority of people who identify as being palestinian. They have all always been consistent about that.
I find it so arrogant that people think that is what they want and they will be told what they want and what to do, its patronising. People in the middle east are not stupid, far from it, they have a much deeper understanding of what is going on than we do. Listen to palestinians they don't want a two state solution never have, that's why they reject it.

I don’t think that that’s necessarily true at all, at least not by the reaction I’ve seen today? Perhaps in the past, but not in the current unprecedented situation. Anyway, it’s fine to disagree with a two state solution as a proposed solution! that is why the peace process is a process of negotiation - Ireland can advise ‘we think you should do this’ until the cows come home but what is decided is down to the two neighbouring states. The point right now is to ensure justice, by ensuring both are recognised have equal legal footing, and, like, a proper government so they can actually negotiate.

I know Micheal Martin has been working with a lot of the Arab states in the ME for the entirety of the conflict - this isn’t a snap decision, there’s been a lot of thought gone into it.

Are you Palestinian @lovelysoap ? Or Jewish? I don’t mean that in an agressive way, I would like to understand your perspective better.

@lovelysoap has made some excellent posts.
It is well documented that palestinians they don't want a two state solution.

Many people think that religion is not the main reason for the conflict. It is more national identity and land than religion.

Israel is pretty much a secular country anyway.

I don’t think that that’s necessarily true at all, at least not by the reaction I’ve seen today? Perhaps in the past, but not in the current unprecedented situation. Anyway, it’s fine to disagree with a two state solution as a proposed solution! that is why the peace process is a process of negotiation - Ireland can advise ‘we think you should do this’ until the cows come home but what is decided is down to the two neighbouring states. The point right now is to ensure justice, by ensuring both are recognised have equal legal footing, and, like, a proper government so they can actually negotiate.

I know of no country in the ME who want a 2 state solution (possibly Iran and arguably proxy Qatar), with good reason. Including Palestinians. Democracy is not a culture within the middle east. That's very 'western'. Israel is the only democracy in the middle east. Why do you think you can tell Palestinians they need to put together a democratic state and why does Ireland think it has that right? Bizarre. Ireland have been woeful in the north and are very pro palestinian so really would not be ideal negotiating partners for any middle east peace deal They are far from neutral. Do they think they can do better than all the countries in the middle east? Jeez.

I know Micheal Martin has been working with a lot of the Arab states in the ME for the entirety of the conflict - this isn’t a snap decision, there’s been a lot of thought gone into it

What snap decision has Ireland made for the people in the middle east?

I wonder who is going to fund this proposed new state.

@lovelysoap apolgies . I meant most of the West see the two state option as the only solution.

That was why I said I don’t really understand the point of Ireland, Spain and Norway Announcement.

This is a really good question. Gaza received billions in aid. Most of it went to building terror infrastructure like tunnels and rockets for Hamas and some nice estates in Qatar for the leadership to live in and for them to become billionaires. No money for bomb shelters for ordinary Gazans....
Who will want to fund Gaza 2? People will only want to fund it if they know what it will not be used to fund terror again and a key question will be who provides security, who runs Gaza and what is the de-radicalisation plan?

So who were all the civilians thronging the streets of Gaza when Shani Louk's broken body was paraded through?

@lovelysoap the government of Ireland are very pro universal human rights - not rights for allies and no rights for non-allies. I don’t think the same can be said for the current government of Israel.

Also 42 countries voted earlier in the month to recognise Palestine - Ireland Spain and Norway are just the first ones to actually do so.

Also, when we’re talking about human behaviour oppression breeds violence and terrorism - when you have an agreed democratic and diplomatic process there is far less scope for that. So, that is a path to anti-extremism.

Apart from when it comes to Jewish people and women and their own people one could argue.

Its lovely that you have such huge faith in the government of Ireland. Many don't.

Democracy is not the only way. As i wrote previously the ME is different. You cannot impose 'western' culture on the ME. They clearly have their own governance structures. It has a different culture. To do so, as i said, is somewhat arrogant and patronising.

The view that the government of Ireland has the answers is arrogant and patronising and misguided in my view. Again Ireland is very biased on this issue.

I wonder who is going to fund this proposed new state.

Most of it went to building terror infrastructure like tunnels and rockets for Hamas and some nice estates in Qatar for the leadership to live in and for them to become billionaires. No money for bomb shelters for ordinary Gazans

Both good questions - and another reason for a true diplomatic process, not against. There should be, and if it happens, there will be massive scrutiny.

@lovelysoap Ireland as a country is facing many issues, like all countries, and many in Western Europe - racism, misogyny, far right ideology taking root - it’s nothing special there. Also there has been a rise in anti semitism.

It’s lovely that you have such huge faith in the government of Ireland. Many don't.

Part of the reason I do have faith in the genuineness of the Irish gov’s statement on this is because the foreign policy has been (relatively) consistent. Also in terms of the population, fundamental universal human rights are taught in school - couple that with the colonial past and… that’s where it comes from. Another reason I have faith in this government is because they, unlike Sinn Fein who imo often fall into populist tactics, were critical that Micheál Martin was attending Israel as well as Gaza - Martin pointed out quite rightly that that is what diplomacy is, speaking to people and finding out what they want, in their own words.

I do not believe that any of the statements above by the Irish government reflect specifically anti semitism or anti Jewish feeling, and the offer to try and help in any way possible to broker a peace is genuine. Not all Israelis support the actions of the current regime just as not all Palestinians support Hamas - there should be no respect given to those who won’t come to the table and talk.

Anyway, it is late and I am tired. Goodnight.

If you think the solution to the Israeli /palestinian problem is simply for Ireland to get them to talk then you are woefully ignorant of the situation and you completely underestimate the complexity.

The containment of the problem is multi faceted and ongoing but thank you for your meaningless word salad.

Palestine has to have a recognisable state. Its the only way things can move forward and stop the illegal land grabbing

@lovelysoap it’s amusing that each time you respond you manufacture something else you want me to have said.