Is this weird

[isthisodd4]

DP and I have a toddler. Family close by and see them very regularly. So very close knit. Our DC very lucky in that they have a raised ‘by village’ type feel when we visit. Large family of parents, siblings and partners. Large house (which becomes relevant to how the following happens so easily before you ask how my child is not within my arms at all moments).

So here’s the thing. SILs OH always walks off with our toddler. 99% of the time this happens they are within visual eye range so whilst I find it a bit odd it’s mundane enough that I haven’t raised it.

But there’s been a few incidents over time which have really grated on me and not sat well.

To name a few; the first which set off my odd-dar was when they were an immobile baby and we were like where are they !?!? And turns out he was in the middle of the garden rocking the baby all alone. That was the first where I was just like what?! After rushing round a house trying to find my child.

The most recent time was we were all in a holiday home and again I realise these two are MIA. There’s one lounge in this home so it’s been a matter of 2-3 minutes. Searched the whole house. Find him leading him down the street about to turn onto another!!

That was the final straw for me and I said to DP to watch it also. Make sure they weren’t alone at all together.

DP was recently with family post this incident and having coffee. And again they kept walking off round the square. Back and forth to the table. DP could see them so thought don’t want to make an issue but after the third time lost his patience and said bring him here. And they ignored and started walking off again. At which point partner had to make a bit of a scene with raised voice firm tone in a cafe to again say not to walk off.

I don’t know. I don’t like it. This whole time I have assumed it’s some odd performative parenting thing of ‘oo look how good I am with children’ and it’s grated but I have tried to ignore.

Now it’s getting to the point where it’s feeling weird. I don’t think he’s a sexual predator or a serial killer or anything like that. But it’s starting to feel like a weird controlling thing. Why would you lead someone’s kid off somewhere when you know the parents don’t want you to. And if every time you do, you are immediately found and the child taken back swiftly with often quite short tone of ‘We didn’t know where they were’ would you not get the hint. It’s really weirding me out. Someone can’t be that socially unaware.

And I have no idea how to address this because obviously I do not want to upset SIL.

Is this weird?

Don’t beat about the bush here! This isn’t just weird behaviour it’s predatory! NO-ONE has ever led my DD anywhere without saying ‘just taking DD down the garden for XYZ’ not even my own parents…. Everyone even your DH should say ‘honey I’m just taking DS to the toilet quick’…. Because there’s no feeling worse than not being able to find your child!
I do the same with my niece and nephew.. “SIL is it ok if I take kids down the garden to get a lolly out of freezer?”… it’s just decency!

I would raise concerns with your parents/DH’s parents and just state it makes you feel uncomfortable and that you don’t care if they think you’re being silly but you DO NOT under any circumstance want him leading your DS anywhere!! They may all know and trust him but you don’t and that’s good enough reason as DS is your son and your rules go (however silly they think that rule is!) you might find that other family members will pipe up and say “oh I noticed that too and thought it weird behaviour!” You might all be in the situation where no one wants to say anything encase it offends someone..
If SIL’s partner leads your son anywhere again just say ‘what are you doing?!’’Leave him alone please!’ Or simply stare him in the eyes and say very firmly “Do NOT take our son anywhere! - he DOES NOT need to go anywhere with anyone except me and DH!!”
This is unbelievable that a man with good intent would even consider leaving the home with someone else’s child!! I wouldn’t dream of doing this with anyone’s child.. not even my own sisters!!
I’m afraid your choices are to either not go when he’s there OR stand up to him each and everytime he acts weirdly towards your son!… challenge it EVERYTIME with a simple
‘what are you doing?’
“where do you think you’re taking him”
if he ignores you again I’d be very clear in my annoyance and I’d be storming out there grabbing son and saying “GIVE HIM BACK TO ME NOW!!’
maybe even SIL finds it odd, maybe he’s gaslighting her saying that you don’t seem to mind so why does she!
If these are all your inlaws then maybe your DH needs to be the one to address it first… but if nothing changes then you both need to keep on at him not to take your son off anywhere!
id be incredibly worried that he’s grooming your son, some groomers do so for literally years!!…. Then convince them at say age 8 that he can’t tell anyone because it would ruin the whole family and no one would believe him anyway etc etc!!

Put a firm stop this this right now @isthisodd4

Put a stop to this immediately. This is 100% abnormal and wrong.
I was raped when I was very little, BY AN UNCLE in a family member's house. Several times. I can't begin to tell you how badly this has affected my life.
People here will eyeroll because they think this is too rare to worry about. It isn't.
You say "I just don’t feel I can come out and declare SIL OH as a potential predator. That’s going to be a familial nuclear bomb."
Firstly, you don't have to say that. Secondly, the family's wish to pretend it's ok is NOT more important than your child's safety. Nothing is.
The fact that you've been very firm with him and he still does it is a very bad sign. A normal person would be mortified at the parent's distress.
Either he's a predator, grooming the whole family (they are incredibly patient and often spend years gaining trust). Or he's playing a nasty game of "I'm in charge here and I can take your child off whenever I want". YOUR child!
Tell him directly that you've had enough and he has to stop. If he or the family whinge, keep saying no, you've had enough, it's not ok to keep taking my child off behind my back. Don't waver.
Nobody needs to take a young child for a spontaneous "walk" without asking the parents. Nobody usually wants to or even thinks of it.
His response will be very telling. If it's apologies and "I'm sorry, I didn't realise", all well and good. If he's angry or performatively hurt, not good.

To be honest I don’t think he can hide behind “fun uncle” because my brothers and BIL’s are totally engaged with my child WITHOUT needing to lead them away/ out of buildings/ down streets. It is odd behaviour and unnecessary, I speak with my nieces and nephews and play with them in the house but I don’t take them for secret walks CONSTANTLY. On the occasion they might want to show me something in the garden etc, or if I take them to the shop for an ice cream etc I would always say to their parents where we were going for the very reason of I’d hate for them to be at a BBQ and frantically panic they’d lost them when we’d just nipped to the corner shop.

Statistically abusers are family members and people we know, and as uncomfortable as that is I think if I felt “off” I’d let that fact take priority over pussy footing around someone. I’d make it clear they aren’t to remove my child from my sight, nor lead them away in secret. I’d rather offend a brother in law I’m not particularly close to then have my child come to me years later with tales of horror from family gatherings when people thought it more polite to say “that’s just uncle x, what’s he like”.

In some ways that situation sounds lovely (having a ‘village’), in others it sounds incredibly overwhelming!

I appreciate your little one has grown up in that environment, but maybe your BIL finds it too much, and that’s why he takes people away from the group (please excuse if I have misinterpreted, but I get the impression he goes off alone with most people?).

Not excusing his behaviour of course, but a clear definitive chat about boundaries is needed in terms of your child.

Maybe a reminder that children wander off and so you need to know where your child is. As a previous poster has said, everyone could think the child is with someone else and they could be halfway down the street.

Explain to him that you are trying to teach your child not to go out of sight and to stay close to Mum and Dad, and that this is undermining you.

The issue here is that the house and the people in it are what your son feels are safe areas and adults. You will realistically have to instil this boundary with all adults. I am assuming that there are times your child is out of your sight, and with someone else other than BIL. You say you don’t have a problem with this, but from a child’s perspective, uniformity in terms of ‘rules’ is key as they grow.

Other people in the family may also have different boundaries with their children, but you can’t change that and just need to keep reinforcing yours. You are likely to get some backlash by the sound of it, especially as this seems to be normal and accepted for your family.

Unfortunately perverts don't have"I'm a pervert” on their forehead - they are often lovely neighbour Ken or funny Uncle Joe. Sad but true and pushing boundaries is part of the grooming process - how much can I get away with? My ex husband from almost 40 years ago is currently serving a 7 year sentence for sexually abusing 2 young children. No one was more shocked than me when I saw it in the news. Very abusive yes, peodophile no. Never in a million years would I have thought that.

Does he have children with SiL?

Have they been together long?

I am wondering if he is just auditioning for the role of "super-dad" all the time - if he and SiL are undecided about kids.

Yes that’s the issue exactly. It’s going to be difficult to address this without it making obvious it’s about him. Or completely changing how the family visits operate.

I am hoping it’s something mundane like that (getting away) and he just has no social awareness.

Obviously there’s also the predator panic. Which I don’t think it is but you never know and that’s always going to be a concern to a parent.

But the other option is more of a weird controlling thing. And obviously we care about SIL deeply. So we are aware also that by ‘making this a thing’ we don’t want to give excuse for a familial split where she becomes ostracised or separated from family with this person if that makes sense.

I think pps idea is watching him is probably the best option and going LC as much as possible for a period to break the familiarity with DC. I do think I have been doing the watch him subconsciously which is how I am quite quick I think to notice and find them.

But yes it’s tricky and a mess. It’s not about hurting his feelings. I don’t give a fuck about that frankly. But if my fears are right and there is something weird and off about him then I don’t want SIL being ostracised or separated from family with him either. If that makes any sense.

Please sit down ASAP with your husband and talk about how you are going to manage this! This needs dealing with before your next family gathering!
Initially you and your husband need to talk to the inlaws and raise your concerns…. List the amount of accessions he’s led your son out of the house and down the street with out anyone’s knowledge! Don’t ask them TELL THEM that you find this weird behaviour and it is NOT to happen again, make them aware you expect everyone who sees him with your DS to go and remove DS from his care…. Like I said previously call him out everytime… maybe once he’s realised he’s being watched he’ll ditch SIL and move onto another unsuspecting family….
Could you police check him to see if he has previous allegations? I know no history of offending doesn’t mean he hasn’t or won’t in the future but if he has and he’s breaking terms of probation or something then the police can take over, if he hasn’t I’d still watch this weirdo like a hawk!
Also at 2 I’d be telling your son that he must not leave the rest of the group and tell him he is not allowed to go off on his own with ANYONE except you and Daddy! Really drum this in, kids are never too young, I used to tell my DD she was only allowed to be taken to the toilet by myself, Daddy, grandma and aunty X… I’d literally say ‘NO OTHER MEN EXCEPT GRANDPA!’ (My dad)… and I don’t think my dad ever did anyway as she was never left alone without either me or my mum being the main care giver!
I would always put my gut feeling above someone else’s offence! I’d just say ‘sorry but I’m not comfortable with it!’

why on earth would any man want the company of a two year old anyway!! He wouldn’t is the answer!!

I think you need to tell him directly "do not lead my child away from the room or garden that he's in".
If he does it again after that, you will know he's a wrong'un and should cut off all contact.

No and this is what I initially thought it was. Which annoyed me as my child’s not a prop but it didnt seem sinister IYSWIM.

It’s just recently the defiance to instruction and the pushing of further boundaries (ie. The street) that’s making me think no I do need to think about this. This is setting alarm bells.

And SIL is now pregnant so it’s that’s why I am saying I am concerned about causing a familial rift where she becomes separated somehow (not that anyone else would ostracise them more a self imposed ostracisiton IYSWIM)

Just another point of view, my husbands family are the same, loud, busy loads of people all talking etc. I find this quite difficult being an only child so quite often play/excuse myself from the crowd to play/talk/walk with the babies/children - nothing weird about it, I just get overwhelmed x

Oh goodness!!
I can’t go into too much detail but a friend of mine found herself in your SIL’s position!
Her husband was accused of grooming her sisters DD, it caused a huge family rift with the family being torn between the 2 sisters, half believed she was acting through concern and right to do so and the other half believing she was over reacting and ‘paranoid’ …. Roll forward a few years and the marriage broke down and other more distant relatives came forward with tales of the DH doing weird stuff!!!
Needless to say he’d covered his tracts and when police investigated couldn’t find anything and it was so long after the event people had new laptops etc!….. so he’s still out there dating single mums with daughters (never yet dated anyone with a son!!!
This does happen more than you realise or anyone would care to consider! Please watch this man like a hawk…. Keep you son as away from him as possible… your DH or you needs to be out there with the kids at all times and never leave any of them alone with this man!

Surely you don’t just grab someone else’s toddler and walk out of the house and down the streets with them? Even after being told not to do this?!…

Seems like he is attempting to create the scenario that him being alone with your dc is the norm. Make it definitely not.

I'm also uneasy about OP's SIL's safety now she's mentioned SIL is pregnant. That's a peak time for abuse to start, and if her husband is the creepy predator he sounds like, getting the chance to divide the family and act the victim to isolate her would probably suit him just fine.

Jesus.

Fucks sake I hate this! It could be completely nothing. It could be the worst thing ever.

And yes I am worried about SIL also if part of my brain is thinking this.

Right I am going to discuss with DP again and we come up with a plan. I’m not willing to let this be and run the risk of finding out.

Thanks all. 🙏

the chance to divide the family and act the victim to isolate her would probably suit him just fine.

Yes that was what I was trying to say but couldn’t articulate. I might just be that and not about DC.

Right this is my last post as don’t want this on trending. Thanks again

Sexual predation within families is EXCEPTIONALLY common. The horrificness of it, and the fact that so very many victims and families keep things like this quiet (for various reasons), means that we sort of can't help feeling it's a rare, or uncommon, thing. It isn't. It is COMMON.

OP, gently, I think you're being too reluctant to act. And I understand why. It feels huge, and risky, and also, I believe this is a bit of a boiled frog situation. It's somewhat in plain sight, which tricks our brains into believing that nothing that bad can be happening, and it's become a kind of familiar, expected pattern, even though you dislike it.

I'm sorry to say but every alarm bell I have about familial predation is ringing like mad right now. As a PP said, predators can be extremely patient, and play very long games. They often groom entire families and social groups to accept and ignore their behaviour, as well as grooming the child victim.

Walking off down the street, about to turn a corner, is drastically alarming. As you pointed out in a reply, this wasn't the slow, meandering, distracted walk of a toddler leading an adult around. This distance had been covered quickly and they were about to go out of sight altogether. It's extremely inappropriate at best.

Even if nothing nefarious is going on, OP, you need to put a stop to this HARD, and in plain view. If nothing else, this is teaching your child that this kind of behaviour and treatment from an adult is normal. It isn't. God forbid a predator should target your child in future, they are more likely to feel it's normal to be taken away from a group, and to be isolated with an adult despite what you, the parents, are saying.

I know you have been retrieving your child quickly and also telling this man your feelings, in the way that's felt best at the time. This response needs escalating rapidly though, OP. Something is very wrong here, even if it is solely that dangerous norms are being taught to your child. I'm so sorry this is even something you're having to think about.

As I said it’s a big house, big family of responsible adults. Everyone bar this person is explicitly trusted with DC. We relax with family when we are there.

Its a difficult one because you are expecting all of the adults to look after your child, which is what this man is doing.

If he wasn’t there then it would be someone else entertaining DC/keeping an eye on him.

He’s not technically doing anything wrong and it seems no one else has picked up on this but I believe you should never ignore your gut instinct.

I think you need to just be a bit firmer about your boundaries.
Just tell him not to take your child out of the house or away from your view.

But tbh the most important thing is that you and DH need to keep an eye on your own child.
If you both want to relax then perhaps take in turns and come up with a system of which one of you will be watch DC.

In some ways, it’s a good thing that this
man is there as you and your DH seem to have no idea where your toddler is half the time and even 1 minute can be the difference between life and death for a toddler.

You will not upset anyone by insisting that this man doesn't go off with your child without you. It's parenting 101.

Get a Sarah's Law application. He may not be on the list but he soon will be, by the sound of it. Tell the police what you've told us and they'll help you. If you AND DH keep him fifmly on the radar, he'll bog off. Predators like to work under the radar, not when they're being watched.

Keep a float of sweets in your pocket for DC and they'll stick close to you.

why on earth would any man want the company of a two year old anyway!! He wouldn’t is the answer!!

I agree with most of what you wrote and I realise this is not the main point you're making at all, but I rolled my eyes at this. It smacks of a view that looking after children is women's work and the men, including dad can all go off down the pub. It's not the 1950s.

This. Absolutely this.

This is what groomers do.

Assume he is one and keep your dc (and other dc) safe.

They look like they are normal you really can't tell.

I’m surprised he can’t read I’m super annoyed with him.

Groomers can read that and it's part of what they do. You're annoyed and uncomfortable, you clearly don't say anything, he wins. They prey on children with parents who won't rock the boat, won't say anything, aren't vigilant, are too trusting, compromise.

Don't be that parent. Say something. Doesn't have to be 'you're a child abuser' but it can be, 'Jeff, please don't encourage DS to do that' or 'Bob, I need DS to listen to me so don't encourage him to do things that I've said no to' or 'Fred I'm teaching Sam to have good boundaries for obvious reasons, I'd prefer if you didn't wander off with him, not every person is safe'. And look him right in the eyes when you say it. No embarrassment, no compromise.

I think you should have a chat with MIL about this, that you’re not trying to imply anything but it makes you very uncomfortable when he leads DS away and you need her to support you in keeping an eye out for this when you are at family get togethers. It might be that MIL has also noticed things and I think it is important especially with SIL being pregnant that her family can watch out for her and the child.