To think there needs to be a public inquiry into child development

[MaryMaryVeryContrary]

It really seems like we have a looming societal crisis in terms of child development and therefore the quality of the public in 10-20 years time. Experienced teachers across the board seem to be reporting an overwhelming increase in delayed, aggressive and disruptive children. I’m extremely worried about how this will impact society when they become adults - it seems (as a guess) at least a tenth of children will be incapable of work of any kind, and many more will need copious amounts of support to live any kind of responsible life.

AIBU to think we need an urgent public inquiry into this and what is going on? It seems to be the elephant in the room and anybody who tries to discuss it is shouted down.

I’m sure some of it is due to cuts in services but surely that can’t account for it all - it’s very sudden and extremely alarming.

Possibly, but I think this is a very tiny number; there are about 3,000 abortions on medical grounds per year (and bear in mind many of these would be non survivable conditions, rather than survivable-but-disabling like Down's Syndrome) whereas about 60,000 babies are born premature (which is about 10% of all births) so roughly 20 times more.

The last time I was on one of these threads, someone pointed out that there has been a shift in that diseases like Polio and Measles used to cause disabilities in children but because these have largely been eradicated by vaccination, those kinds of effects are seen less often and so this is a sort of shift away from physical towards cognitive impairments instead.

Also, it's not just neonatal mortality which has increased, child/youth mortality in general has improved (presumably healthcare, vaccines, improved safety and supervision) so that in 1970, 24 children out of every 1000 born did not survive to adulthood, with 21 of those not surviving to age 5, whereas in 2021 it is only 5 out of every 1000 children born who die before they reach adulthood, and 4 of these are under 1 year old (there is not enough of a difference in the data to report separate figures for 1-5 year olds). So there are more surviving children and statistically they are more likely to be from backgrounds where they will be disadvantaged, more likely to have delays, attention issues, behavioural issues etc. This doesn't sound like much because it's about 1.5%, but if an average secondary school has about 1000 pupils, that is 15 pupils throughout that school, a primary school has about 300 so 5 pupils in any primary school, who would not have been there in the 60s, 70s, 80s. These children are very vulnerable - so vulnerable that in previous generations they might actually not have survived.

And yes age of parents is relevant, I heard something the other day I think it was on a podcast, saying that the current estimate is that there is an increase of approximately 10% in rates of autism and ADHD due to age of parents. So that is quite a significant increase, although it's not like it's doubling (or more) which is what people seem to want to make it out to be. Apparently this is because the parts of the brain which are affected in these disorders are fairly "new" in terms of evolution - the genetic "templates" for them are less clear and so they can more easily be disrupted by gene mutations, which are fairly common - if a mutation is significant enough to disrupt foetal development massively, then it causes rejection of the fertilised egg, or if this happens at a slightly later stage of development then you would have a miscarriage, if a mutation is more minor that the foetus is allowed to develop, then it might not be clear unless genetic testing is done and then mutations such as those causing neurodevelopmental disorders are so subtle that we cannot yet reliably identify them. There is some research into genes which are involved in the development of ADHD and autism, but it is much more complicated, it's not like Cystic Fibrosis for example where you can have a clear marker and a test to see if you're a carrier for it, there are hundreds and maybe thousands of individual genes which can contribute to individual cases. It seems like we are a while off being able to understand the genetics of these things well.

There's nothing intellectually challenging about parenting young kids - in fact it's mostly repetitive and routine.

True but what this misses I think is that one marker (and a really important one) of intelligence is the ability to deal with short term pain for long term gain. Loads of that is required for good parenting. So choosing no screens, choosing vegetables and home cooked meals, not pacifying with screens or sweets. It doesn’t require intelligence to sit for hours playing imagination based games or drawing with a 2 year old but it requires a type of willpower/ understanding of consequences to chose to do it.

Also with abnormalities, people don’t abort because of “soft markers” so you might be aware there was something concerning, like the foetus having a small head. But that alone isn’t compelling enough to justify a medical abortion. So yes, screening is better, but if it’s unreliable (which it is) it doesn’t help all that much.

Also UPF?

I strongly believe a brain can’t be nourished, grow and thrive on chemical crap made in a lab.

Exactly. Kids just got on with playing by themselves or with friends outdoors (or were entertained by a much bigger screen in the corner of a room), but as a pp pointed out, maybe that is the issue. I think kids don't interact with each other enough. My son barely has enough time to play at break time at school. It's much shorter than when I was at school - barely 15 minutes after lunch, then people moan they are unruly in class.

It certainly wasn't nurturing parenting that people romanticise back in the day. My OH and his brothers were constantly down A&E and his mother wasn't particularly attentive, and I raised myself in many ways, although my mum was very nurturing when she was around. People always blame parents of future generations, it has always been the case, but I do think it's quite a challenging time to raise kids now.

My son is 4.5 year old has never used a tablet and only looks at my phone when I'm showing him pictures of places we're going etc. He watches telly but always with me and/or DH (his dad) sat with him r at least popping in and out the kitchen to check in. He only watches a handful of things too - duggee, bluey, pat, Sam and Winnie the pooh. No telly after 6pm.

He loves being outside which is fab.

He's also awaiting assessment for autism based on concerns raised by us, HV and nursery. He's well behaved, not violent but is very anxious and can be intensely particular about routine, transitions etc. Awful separation anxiety despite us doing everything the advice suggests. Sleep is and always has been very erratic.

I've been reading the thread with interest. There's a difference between children who are poorly behaved due to environment and children with sen. Excessive screens, poor diet, chaotic lives certainly aren't going to help them but they don't "cause" autism or ADHD.

I think we have a mix of more visibility and knowledge of these conditions, plus for lots of children we have things that will cause any kid to struggle - as mentioned above the cost of living, stressed, overwhelmed parents, over stuffed curriculums being taught by stressed teaches in under funded schools. It all adds up.

I also think we need to move away from the narrative of how awful having kids is. You see constantly on here. I get parents are tired and stressed but it's thread after thread of "I'm wishing away the weekend" "stick them in nursery another day" "get them in activities" (after 10 hour nursery days several times a week) "oh you've smacked your kid and screamed all week, nevermind they won't remember, have a wine" "oh don't worry babies are just boring" It's really depressing to be honest.

I also think we need to move away from the narrative of how awful having kids is.

I think some of that is the feeling of our children being so unwelcome. Kids just aren’t tolerated. It might be social media but you see a constant stream of posts re them not disturbing anyone else’s peace and to “teach them how to behave.” But nobody seems to acknowledge that learning anything is a process and that to succeed you must also be given the opportunity to fail.

It feels a lot like kids can’t be kids and their bad behaviour should be behind closed doors. Then people wonder why you use screens at restaurants etc.

I also think we need to move away from the narrative of how awful having kids is.

Or maybe we need to promote it more so women stop sleepwalking into having kids because "it's a mandatory life stage" and then find they hate it and want to bury their face in TikTok all day instead of doing another load of washing or playing another fucking game of dolls?

Not sure I really agree with you. Firstly, I think the short term pain for long-term gain is more related to having more money and resources than intelligence. There's a lot of research on why poor people are more likely to spend all their money and don't save the little they could save, for example.

Secondly I don't think that being a good parent actually requires hours of undivided attention.

Good parenting doesn’t require hours of undivided attention, no, but it does require willpower as the PP says. Of course it’s easier in the moment to give in to a tantrum or to just stick on the TV or to want to succumb to the addiction we all have with our phones. It’s a bit Like how everyone uses dummies now - it’s just easier than picking up the baby and rocking! Does that mean it’s the best thing to do? No.

people are addicted to their phones and they are overworked and stressed/everyone is eating UPF and therefore sluggish/depressed/tired in a way they weren’t before. If I eat a domino’s pizza I’m not the same the following day.

I feel like when I was growing up in the 90s there was just a better balance of strictness and attention/some tv some treat food but 80% of the time good food and expectation to amuse myself with games etc.

I doubt we can take on tik tok, fb etc but MN could perhaps have a thread/article where MN readers can vote that we DO want a return of surestart for new Mums, all new Mums ,with guidance on food,discipline,sleep problems ,breast feeding, etc etc and which provides a place for new mums to socialise.

Then include info of where to find details of your MP and Labour Party leaders and suggest we start lobbying them now. They would take notice if enough people did it.

Another thing would be to discourage use of phones in school - I’m sure there are other things, eg promoting of junk food- but I think a sure start service properly funded would make a big difference.

@BertieBotts thank you for the figures; I hadn't realised the discrepancy between the numbers, I'd just thought of them both as factors.

Also a good point about improvements in child mortality.

Kids didn't used to go to restaurants. Weren't allowed in pubs. Went to McDonald's or little chef for an occasional treat but going to restaurants and cafes all the time is a recent development.

People used to leave kids outside the pub in the car with a packet of crisps. It wasn't that people tolerated children's bad behaviour in those days - in fact the opposite - they just weren't taken to adult environments at a young age.

Lower infant mortality. Off the top of my head, I can think of 4 children who had significant problems either whilst their mother was pregnant or during labour/birth, or in infancy. In the "old days" these pregnancies would not have been viable, and the babies would not have survived. All 4 children have some degree of developmental delay, ranging from never being able to walk or talk, to being able to be in a mainstream school albeit for only 2 hours a day. My dad's youngest sister, born in the 1940s, was born disabled, and they just let her die in the hospital as an infant. I am NOT advocating for a return to that, obviously it is an amazing thing that medicine has come along in leaps and bounds allowing these children to live with a decent quality of life. But society is not set up nor accepting enough of disabled people, and SEN provision is so lousy.

On a different note entirely I think that there is a lot more permissive parenting which is dressed up as gentle parenting. I actually struggle a bit with discipline myself, I've got better but am not perfect. However, I have had to let friendships fade with two mums that I really liked and got on with, because neither of them would do any basic discipline with their children. I stopped seeing one of the mums after we went out for the day and she allowed her DD to push around and hurt my DS. Similar with the other mum, we went round her house and she allowed her DS to push my DS2 off his scooter then chase both DS1 and DS2 around the house with a large stick.

It is almost seen as normal now - I went to a wedding recently and another mum said that both of her children were so badly behaved they both needed 1:1 at all times, despite being NT and the oldest one was in reception, so presumably in a class of 25+.

My 6 year old is the only one out of his group of friends who doesn't have an Xbox. When I was younger Xboxes and expensive games consoles were only given to older teenagers, not KS1 children. People are shocked when I say my 9 year old still plays with playmobil, my mum's friend had the cheek to tell us it was "babyish". Many children are in front of tablets indefinitely or taken out to organised activities, either way ensuring they are constantly entertained and have instant gratification, particularly on an addictive device. This doesn't help them problem solve or figure out what to do when bored.

Being bored is seen as a Bad Thing which must be avoided at all costs. The weekends must be packed with endless instagrammable fun for the sake of #makingmemories.

The fuss so many parents make at the end of each school year when their darling child who is exceedingly popular with many friends, has been put in a class with only a few of them, oh dear however will they cope. So little accountability and blaming teachers for everything.

Alot log children, coming into early years have no play skill's due to the use of screen time. They simply don't know how to play, they aren't getting the physical exercise as they don't go out much, they don't take risks anymore. Children are not resilient and are pampered.

Point taken. But I meant more widely too. On planes etc.

I’m a teacher and even my top sets demonstrate poor behaviour and concentration. If the curriculum allowed me to teach in 60 second bursts like a reel, I’m sure I would have more success.

Phone addiction is rife. We have a no phone policy at my school but that doesn’t matter - pupils have smart watches and I see the constant tapping and scrolling on there.

I agree there seem to be more kids that struggle. But some of it will be because there are far fewer special schools than years ago.

Non verbal kids would have been in special schools 30 years ago as would many kids woth asd etc.

I think that childhood is just too heavily managed now. Children don’t get free time and when they do it’s directed into games/phones etc. Many spend significant amounts of time in childcare which has strict routines and the children are always on someone else’s agenda. The space is set up for children so they aren’t seeing what adults do and learning from adults day to day tasks. They might get trips out but overall they are isolated from wider society. They are with care givers who have a lot of others to care for.

Once at school they often do after school clubs, wrap around care and so are still in a highly regulated environment.There is little free play. I think a lot of the behaviour issues are due to simple rebellion to not being able to do what they want. Even summer holidays many children are still in regulated activities.

They need time to be bored, time with their family and down time doing nothing.

The use of screens should be limited in young children. It’s scary how many babies and toddlers are expert at using them.

Underdiagnosed FASD.
Unparented children who are hopped up on processed and fast foods, with poor gut health and low serotonin as a consequence.
Ridiculous amounts of screen time.
Imitating the poor behaviours they see on whatever platform.
Some or all of the above.

I don't want to de-rail too much but the point you made about kids playing with toys getting called "babyish" really struck a chord with me.

My son is 4.5, doesn't have a tablet, only watches certain things on telly and they're very definitely kiddy/pre school things (except maybe the 90s Winnie the pooh which I remember watching as a kid so must have been a bit older) It's what he's into, he hates anything "scary" and isn't interested in superheroes or anything yet. He loves Playmobil and figures in general, always has.

His "imaginative play" is often reenactments of bits from books, telly, things he's seen that day like people having a delivery 🤣 It's extremely repetitive and his set ups need to be "just right" he remembers exactly what Playmobil pirate has each colour bandana and if they're mixed up he will very insist on "fixing it". But it's great to join in with and just watch as he goes through it all.

My mil and another mum friend have both said to me I'm "keeping him young" and it wasn't said in a kind way, it kind of stung. I worry about him not fitting in as it is, without people making me feel bad for him playing with perfectly age appropriate stuff!

I agree with you on this!

I think the majority of posters talking about 'back in the day' parenting and lifestyles are talking about 50 plus years ago. More than half a century ago so not particularly relevant to compare to.

Dear any SEN parent who maybe reading this thread.

you are wonderful, you are doing your best and it was not your fault.
the fight is real and not everyone will understand.
Also don’t worry that your child is in a nappy too long or non verbal, don’t worry if they haven’t quite got the hang of using a fork they will all achieve their own things in their own time.
they will be wonderful regardless and are all individuals with their own adaptions needed but doesn’t mean they can’t thrive. Some may never learn to read but they will learn other things and everything they achieve will be because of you.
your not the cause of their problems but your are the cause of their challenges they over come no matter how small or big.