To think the level of state involvement many posters expect is bonkers?

[FaeryRing]

It seems like there is nothing the state shouldn’t be responsible for any more! Feeding your kids, getting them to school, hiring ‘behaviour specialists’ for every classroom because parents don’t want to discipline their own children, giving you money towards virtually anything you ask for because it’s not fair you have to pay for anything yourself.. I find it absolutely wild and don’t think it’s at all realistic or representative of what most adults believe?

Just go ahead and say it rather than hiding behind ambiguity?

@Noras Underclass? What the fuck?! Who do you mean by that?

I'm very sorry that you are in a bad place, I hope you are ok and you get yourself sorted! You take the all the time and resources you need to get yourself back on track! I also hope your Father is ok too. Look after yourself and your parents.

All the people on here who view anyone on benefits as unworthy of any help regardless of situation are narrow minded fools, who are lucky to never have been in a situation where they need help themselves. They need to count themselves lucky! What do I know though i'm just a feckless scrounger or "black hole" who needs to take responsibilty for myself😂.

@MistressoftheDarkSide I really hope you get the flat and everything else works out as well as it can in the circumstances for you

It's definitely a massive battle nowadays to get help. Which is not only cruel but also false economy as people end up in worse circumstances, their heath's affected (costing the NHS), and people end up more state dependant and for longer.

Your example. So many other people's too. Like the woman whose post I saw yesterday. She's fleeing DV with her DC and might have to give up her job (so be state dependant) because the council and housing association told her there's no housing available for a transfer.

Loads of other people in circumstances like yours and hers, who need decent housing to avoid or reduce state dependancy.

The cost of building more social housing will be expensive initially but not doing it is more expensive in the end. It's not only about housing related benefits costs of not having social housing. The shortage of SH has a knock on cost on other services. NHS, social care, and so much else.

Thank you ❤️

@ChishiyaBat @Againname

Your kindness is much appreciated. As are your posts on here. Talking about this stuff and sharing the reality of life for people at the thin end of the wedge is so important I think.

As I've got older and wiser (?) I've come to understand life is never black and white and standing in judgement solves nothing.

The current zeitgeist is division, polarisation and atomistic, yet no man is an island. The only thing left in Pandora's box was hope. It's so tempting to give up, yet apparently I can't. If I go down, it'll be fighting, for myself and anyone else who needs it.

I wish you both well. And all the other posters trying to explain why some of the proposed solutions to artificially engineered social problems are untenable if we want to retain humanity.

Have to be up early to get my Dad to the housing office as well tomorrow. He's had to separate from my mentally unwell SM for his own well-being. He can't come with me as it's too far from his GP surgery and too small. The next few weeks are going to be fraught..... ah well. We'll get there.

Sweet dreams xxx

Sweet dreams, I hope you sleep well @MistressoftheDarkSide I have my fingers crossed that it goes well for you and your Dad tomorrow.
And never give up hope, it's sometimes the only shining beacon in the black abyss that is threatening to consume us all.
Take care and good night.

Good luck from me too @MistressoftheDarkSide . Hopefully you will soon be settled in your new flat with your cat. I hope your dad gets settled somewhere too.

Good luck with the flat @MistressoftheDarkSide and with everything else going on too

And i repeat. L and Q is a housing association!

https://www.theguardian.com/money/article/2024/may/13/lq-has-raised-my-flats-service-charge-by-41-i-cant-afford-it

Regarding the cost of building more social housing.
A lot of people need benefits because of lack of SH. Also, housing isn't an issue that exists in isolation. For example, housing issues massively affect health (and cost the NHS loads).

It is not the job of us, the taxpayers, to provide anybody in this country with a permanent home of their own. That is up to them.

Everyone is a taxpayer, and investing in decent SH is one of the best investments we could do.

No permanent homes for anyone not wealthy enough to afford one? Unstable lives create and increase social problems. Then people wonder why the NHS, social care, police, and the benefits system cost so much, and why there's a mental health crisis.

Also why our towns, cities, and villages are declining, and why there's more state dependancy (large transient populations means loss of community and support).

Whatever anyone thinks about 'feckless' parents, you can't want to see homeless children?

And what about disabled people? Nobody chooses to be disabled. People fleeing DV?

People in low paid jobs? Everyone can't all get higher paid work because the lower paid jobs still need doing.

The staying in larger houses thing. Lots of older and disabled people need extra space for carers or medical equipment.

The big thing though is there's not enough smaller homes, and the current downsizing policy unfairly penalises childfree people (who are not only taxpayers but often use less public services. For example, schools and maternity care). It's linked too to the issues discussed in this thread of 'feckless' parents, because the current system punishes the childfree.

People are going to have to move out of large, expensive southern cities to less expensive places so that they can afford to live.

Mass displacement simply moves and spreads the problem elsewhere, adding pressure on housing and other public services in other areas.

How many threads have there been on here with people upset about 'blow ins' adding pressure on housing and services?

There's also not enough jobs everywhere else for large numbers of displaced incomers. Especially as a lot of cheaper housing areas are cheaper because of lack of job opportunities.

Unless government funding is provided for a huge scheme for social housing this can never improve. Perhaps this is where all the money for so-called Smart Motorways and HS2 should have gone rather than being wasted.

I agree.

Goodnight @MistressoftheDarkSide and wishing you well for tomorrow xx

There's some depressing views on this thread but you and some of the other posters (sorry not tagging every one of you but wishing you all well too) make me think it's worth not completely losing faith in humanity!

@Againname
I made the point about social housing on another thread but it is worth making it again.

The number of immigrant workers into this country to fill key roles is growing. In 2023 net migration into this country was 672,000. How long can the UK sustain 672,000 new workers ( and rising ) coming into the UK and needing homes each year? The housing crisis will get worse and worse. I am not critical of migrant workers. They are coming here to fill vacancies and of course deserve proper housing.
Rising divorce numbers and increasing numbers of single parents also means separated parents need two houses rather than one. It too puts pressure on housing.*
There is more pressure on housing than there has ever been.
A quick Google tells me that 231,100 new homes were built in 2023 in the UK. Notice the 400,000 shortfall in new homes compared to net migration numbers. *
No UK Government of any political group can afford to support the building of nearly 700,000 new homes each year. Equivalent to a city the size of Sheffield or Cardiff. You simply cannot have a new city every year for the foreseeable future. It is not feasible and not going to happen so the shortfall in housing is going to grow.
Any politician who pretends otherwise is doing just that, pretending.
There is no money to pay for, no intention and no possibility of 700,000 new houses, social or otherwise, being built in the UK every year.

It’s not meant as a derogatory term. It means people who will struggle to escape poverty and have fewer life opportunities. Those who are disabled might be in this class if they are job limited.

Nope sorry, It still sounds offensive, as if disabled or people struggling are beneath everyone else!

@Bushtika Your points are relevant and it's perhaps the elephant in the room. It's not easy to discuss because it's a difficult debate especially if wanting to avoid knee jerk reactions and hostility towards migrants (or any other vulnerable group), but ignoring it doesn't help. We need to discuss the impact on people and communities especially disadvantaged ones.

I understand people with more knowledge on this than me say there's room and money to build enough homes for everyone already here and for everyone coming here. If that's true, great and let's get on with it.

I'm not an expert on available land (not needed for farming, flood defences and other uses) so I genuinely don't know. Perhaps if spread out evenly across the UK? If it's not possible or realistic then a solution that's compassionate to migrants, but also takes into account the needs of people already here needs to be discussed.

Edited to add. Not every migrant will need SH. One of my neighbours came over here a few years ago. They're in a relatively well paid job and they have a mortgage.

How long do you think it takes to build 700,000 houses? It would take more than a year for 1 lot I reckon.
I also have no clue about available land, but I don't think it'd take long to fill what ever there is, if 700k a year is the amount needed.

@ChishiyaBat it will take as long to build that many houses as it takes to allow Eastern European labourers back to do it. Brickies are commanding £200 a day in the South East at present such is the shortage of labour.

We can always have a look at all the empty dwellings (around 1 mil, taking out second homes) first.

Everyone is a taxpayer, and investing in decent SH is one of the best investments we could do

“everyone is a taxpayer” is an insane way of looking at things.

@MistressoftheDarkSide your situation is awful and I’m sorry for you and what you are going through, but your situation is also exactly NOT what is being discussed/ its peak MN for people to get defensive (understandably I suppose) feeling attacked for a situation which isnt what’s being discussed at all. It’s not a “gotcha!” Because you’re one of the few using benefits etc as help when it’s genuinely needed and wanting to then regain independence financially.

benefits should be a temporary measure to help people who cannot help themselves, as in your situation. Or permanent for those who are disabled etc. and they should be far better than they are. Support should be better.

but support can’t be better because of people milking the system dry.

“wealth redistribution” a PP mentioned? What? Take away more from higher contributors to pay those who don’t? No thanks.

I had no idea people were having children just to get benefits and housing; until I read the housing comments on this thread. It’s obscene that children are being used in this way.

Nearly 19 billion!!! In benefits goes unclaimed.

Everyone is, we all pay VAT, most people on benefits will pay council tax or a proportion of it, HB rarely covers the full rent.

Its all very well saying this is unsustainable etc etc but whats the alternative?

Unfortunately, we have to accept that some people ( a relatively small minority) will abuse the system but when these women who have a child to get property are asked why? many will say it was to escape abuse, from family or an ex partner.
Plus if you asked them if they'd prefer a decent job instead of staring at 4 walls, screaming children & no money, they'll go for the job every time.

So why dont we do more to help people who messed up their schooling to be mature students? we used too, free O level evening classes, free technical college courses and employment schemes, delivered by skill centres and manpower services.... now all we have have is SEETEC who will help someone fill out a CV.

As for asking the rich to pay more, why on earth not? do you think Rishi Sunak should pay more than 20% tax on his recent US investment earnings of £4m ? as he isn't paying NI on that either, he is paying less tax than a teaching assistant or a nurse.

Taxes on unearned income are ridiculously low and its the rich that benefit from these the most & fight the hardest to keep them low.

Well thank you for that, but actually I'm in the position I'm in due to cumulative poor life choices by the standards of most.

I've escaped criminality and addiction, but could easily become an alcoholic. Have always "lived in the moment". Never really used my education or qualifications because they were creative and I fell pregnant at 25 early in a relationship and couldn't face another termination. So low paid jobs, worked around family. My 14 year marriage was abusive and it took a Jeremy Kyle style incident to end it. I've been sectioned. My last relationship was 11 years with my soul mate. During that I cared for his Mum with Alzheimers, worked around it founding a business, my Mum died of cancer and then the love of my life died.

I'm writing this because I can see how I've "failed" by the standards expected on here. There are hundreds of thousands of me. I've turned our a decent DS by more good luck than good judgement. His life hasn't been perfect but I jokingly tell him to regard me as more of a terrible warning than a good example.

I've done my best, but in those moments where things have gone sideways yet again, I could easily give up.

Have I just been unlucky? Sometimes. But often, personal fubars have been massively compounded by the system that does exist failing, delaying, or obstructing a resolution due to bureaucracy or attitudes of those administering things.

Either there is a safety net that works efficiently or there isn't - the institutional gas-lighting around the deserving and undeserving is what drives people to the darkest places and worst behaviours. The current system creates its own monsters, and enjoys punishing them.

@MistressoftheDarkSide 100%

My mum was a victim of DV, eventually left him, 3 very young kids, social security, selling family heirlooms, abject poverty really, got Social Security, that was it, doubtless many on here would have had her stoned and thrown into the workhouse, her kids set up to clean chimneys.

A good friend of mine has also been beaten black n blue, even got arrested when she dared to fight back :( when she went for help after her parents died and she was suicidal, any respite help was refused "wasn't serious enough"
Has 2 children who despite her doing the very best for them haven't turned out as she'd have wished, so lets sterilise them them both.

People have no clue as to the backstories of the poor, how they got there and cruelty the inadequate benefits system inflicts on them.

Government provision hasn't shrunk though, it's just spread more thinly. There are more people but fewer taxpayers, which means we pay more, the services are spread thinly and nobody feels they have value for money. The NHS is getting more money than ever before, schools have adequate funding, councils receive money from three streams - government, council tax and business rates. Social care perhaps is the one failing, but everything else receives higher funding than ever before, but the downfall is that there are fewer people paying for it and more using it so it feels like a poorer service. Facts don't seem to matter over feelings these days.

Economic inactivity has been pretty stable for the last 30 years. Statistically the proportion of tax payers is the same.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/timeseries/lf2s/lms