To not feel guilty about maternity leave colleague

[NinePumpkins]

I have been off work due to chronic illness since November of last year - actually, my cancer was diagnosed just after I started in this job about 4 years ago, so my whole employment has been blighted by my illnesses (cancer now in remission, other stuff going on). Nevertheless, I enjoy the job when I'm able to do it - it's an administrative position.

Recently, redundancy proposals were announced at my company, and in my team the other 2 administrators at the level above and below me were put at risk. My role is to be continued. I've now heard it on the grapevine that one of the others, currently on maternity leave, is annoyed about the whole situation, and frustrated that we weren't all put in a pool for redundancy?? I'm sorry she's heard the news while on mat leave and sure that it's stressful, but I'm confident I can return to my position. AIBU for not feeling guilty about it? I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to return, and am currently on unpaid sick leave, but I know things will ultimately be resolved.

She's entitled to feel how she feels and to question the general process. This is natural and not personal to you.

It looks like they've looked at all of the admin and realised they don't need 3 admin roles and only need 1 at approximately the middle grade which you happen to occupy.

Hence the other two are being made redundant through this process.

But you currently cost the organisation nothing, since you are unpaid sick leave, and can be managed out separately without the need to pay redundancy, which is obviously cheaper.

I'm sorry to say, but you cannot assume that you are "safe". The only thing that is given is that an admin role at the middle grade is not being made redundant at this point.

In your position, given you are now on unpaid sick leave with no definite return date, I would be prepared for your employer to begin that "managing out" process once the dust has settled from the redundancies.

You may want to discuss with ACAS, CAB or see a solicitor because if this is exactly what your union are telling you then they are not being honest. Your employer has to be careful given cancer counts as an automatic disability but they absolutely can terminate your employment provided they follow the appropriate legislation and processes (same goes for redundancy).

But you wouldn't be 'managed out'. You can be dismissed even if you are ill on the basis that your illness makes it impossible to do your job. That is a high level summary and there are of course rules but after being off for 6 months, you should take caution as you seem to believe that your job will always be there. I would contact ACAS and discuss.

I'm sorry you are unwell.

However, from a business point of view, can you not see that it's unfair for a business to continue employing someone if they're off sick and have no idea when they're coming back? What do you expect them to do? It sounds like you've been off sick more than you've been able to attend work. If I was running that business I would be trying to manage you out the business too - but on fair and reasonable grounds, of which long term sickness is one (if managed properly).

You do sound a bit smug about the security of your role - which you shouldn't be.

You need to seek clearer and correct advice. You absolutely can be dismissed on ill health grounds.

What's been explained is that they only need a grade 2 admin now, so the grade 1 and 3 admins are at risk/will be made redundant. (My role is the grade 2)

Strong echoes of Golgafrincham Ark B here

to be honest I completely understand why she would be pissed off. I would think most people would if they'd been working throughout and covering your job as well, and then she's the one at risk. Not to mention the added stress of maternity. Plus now people are gossiping about her 'on the grapevine' and shit stirring behind her back.

but still don't understand why you would feel guilty. It's nothing to do with you. The redundancy is based on job roles - they've decided they need an Administrator but maybe not a Senior Administrator or a Junior Administrator, rather than deciding "We need NinePumpkins but not Amy or Beth." It wouldn't matter if you were in work or not, if the three of you have 3 distinct and separate jobs and yours wasn't considered as part of the redundancy scheme you wouldn't have been put in it.

If anything you being off is a good thing for them, as if you're still not back they will need someone doing the Administrator role if they get rid of the Senior and Junior posts, so will be more likely to keep one of them on until you come back, so will at least give some extra time and space to find a new job.

Very very wrong. Even if the illness is cancer related and could be covered by the equality act, they can still manage out people with cancer and other covered conditions. You can’t do the job, have been on constant sick leave… you’re not protected and it is not unfair dismissal and you won’t win.

Unions will always try and fight for you, and always say there could be grounds for something and then look into it if it happens, but there really isn’t grounds for unfair dismissal here. You’re not doing the job because you’re too unwell, you’ve used up your sick pay and you’re not on unpaid sick leave. No company is legally required to keep a role open for you when your health prevents you from working over such a long period. They’ll manage you out due to your inability to perform the role. And they’ll be right to do so when two other people, who are actually working, are at risk of losing their job due to shrinking the workforce.

Agree. Totally incorrect advise. Please be careful listening to them.

There may be grounds for unfair dismissal, but it's very rare people win unfair dismissal cases. It's much more likely that the union will help you come to a settlement, that may well be less than you'd get via redundancy. I'd be really worried about my role if it hadn't needed covering for 6 months. If they do make two other staff members redundant, and they actually do need someone to do you job, but you can't yet, what's going to happen? I think you're being a bit cavalier tbh. Employment law isn't a panacea unfortunately, the unions often settle rather than get into a protracted fight.

Same happened to a colleague. After a year they can dismiss you. You're not automatically safe. Depends how long you've had off work. As long as they go through hr and appropriate channels.

It's your work who should feel guilty, not you. But good to empathise, it's really tough to be at risk of redundancy particularly while on mat leave. It doesn't say great things about the organization management. Sorry to hear you've had such a hard few years.

No, not priority. But anything like notice period and garden leave don't happen while on mat leave but afterwards.

As for feeling guilty.....you can't be discriminated against because of your illness so would be included with others in a similar group of employees. If no one is covering your work then it sounds like perhaps you're in a unique role. She is in a group that have been found to be unneeded so it would be discrimination to NOT include her but as above the mat leave would be taken into account.

Are they very definitely keeping you or just an admin 2 role that others can apply for?

You're unreasonable for "reading between the lines" and probably projecting some of your own insecurities about being away from work for so long on to your colleague who is quite rightly pissed off that she's been made redundant during maternity leave.

I'm currently off for 6 months having spinal surgery. I don't feel guilty in the slightest. I've worked in this trust for 4 years but in the NHS in general for 43 years. It's pretty much wrecked my health over the years.

Unfortunately the company will have their hands tied if you are off sick. It won’t be easy for them to make you redundant because if you’re off sick, you have a certain amount of protection. Feel sorry for them that they’re ultimately going to be left with no staff if you are going to continue to be off ill indefinitely. And have a bit of empathy btw - the colleagues on Mat leave might not be able to afford being without a job, but as you’re currently off unpaid, you can.

In my experience, Union advice can be a bit hit-and-miss - some union reps are very good and some are, erm, mediocre.
I say this as someone is in favour of unions generally.

Should it come to it, you might need actual legal advice from an employment solicitor.

Because if your employer does things properly, following the correct process, it would not be unfair dismissal.
And then your employer would be free to fill the post.

If the OP is still receiving cancer treatment then she is protected by the disability act.

OP are you still receiving cancer treatment? (oral tablets count as treatment)

It clearly doesn't- sounds like a dodgy situation to me.

I am bemused that someone who hasn’t been at work for 6 months with no coverage can confidently regard their role as safe while they are going through redundancies. They may simply be planning to remove you due to capability, as it’s cheaper than a payout. I’m sorry to be blunt, but I would have no confidence your role is safe.

Actually OP… your covered full stop.
https://www.macmillan.org.uk/cancer-information-and-support/impacts-of-cancer/work-and-cancer/cancer-and-employment-rights

I felt very sad and worried for my colleagues when they were all at risk and I wasn't. A mild form of survivor's guilt is pretty normal in that situation.

I think you are way overthinking. Girl is faced with possibly job loss. Girl is worried. Girl wishes that her position wasn't the one to go. What do you think would be a better way to think in this scenario? Unless there are rumours spreading that the team think "cancer girl" should go instead or the bosses are considering it, just get on with it.