Wealth is draining out of the UK

[Ifmenhadperiods]

I was at an event with business people the other week. One of the high net worths said to me that no wealthy foreigner he knows will stay in the UK long term. He is local but says anyone with foreign connections and wealth is fleeing abroad - and taking their businesses with them. That is the chat around his dinner table in Holland Park.

One indisputable piece of evidence I guess is the massive slump in companies that list in the UK. We also have so few pension funds investing in UK business. Personally I don’t blame them: my own shares ISA is invested in the US and has grown by 30% in the last year, a figure UK shares just can’t compete with. Most of our FTSE top companies are in legacy industries like fossil fuels while elsewhere they’re in tech and innovation as well
as traditional companies.

Several friends have left here and gone to the US in the last decade and they say the lifestyle is excellent (and they earn far more, working in tech).

I have also spoken to friend’s older DC (6th formers) and some who have had offers from Oxford and Cambridge are rejecting them in favour of Ivy League schools.

Apparently Ivy leagues are FAR better at getting students to think about their careers from day one. Oxbridge is amazing at teaching you the subject in an academically rigorous way, but Ivy leagues pair you up with business investors if you do a degree such as economics. They have fees assistance for households earning up to 400k US dollars. Here you can’t get student loans if you have more than about £50k in household income.
I know the fees are higher there but they also have more scholarships in the US.

We are about to tax private schools. A popular policy with the public. But again, apparently the wealthy foreigners who can afford this tax are worried it will shake out the middle class Brits they want their kids to go to school with! They don’t just want their kids to go to school with foreign and British super elites. They’re quite fond of the eccentric Brits.

It seems every way you turn, there’s little incentive to make money especially with the cliff edge in income taxation. And the worst thing is it’s understandable because of the massive levels of wage stagnation we have to subsidise through working tax credits (no real wage growth for 20 years!).

We don’t want immigrants but we have no one to pay for our massive welfare bill which is made up mostly of a triple locked state pension and grossly inefficient health system.

If you’re lucky enough to have a bit of spare cash, forget moving up the property ladder, owning a holiday home or a rental (tax hell lies in all those paths).

Can anyone shake me out of this pessimism? Of course I know we are lucky not to be in Syria or Afghanistan or Gaza. But this is about the decline of the UK rather than where we are compared to truly volatile or oppressive countries. I genuinely don’t want to emigrate but fear we - along with anyone who was once comfortable but never wealthy - are going to have a very uncomfortable retirement - if I make it that far - and our DCs will face a future in a country that will continue to get poorer, with the entrepreneurial class deserting us.

I don’t care where they go. They can take their money where they like, it’s not like they’re planning on giving me any of it.

This.

But you are not seriously comparing the HE finance situation here to that in USA? There is a massive student debt problem in the USA. Unlike in the UK, low earners have to pay it back. A few episodes of the Dave Ramsey show tells you all you need to know about US student finance.

I agree with @BIossomtoes. A lot of economic issues we see now can be traced back to MT.

There are still people chatting around dinner tables in Holland Park?

Well I never. I thought all the property there was lying empty having been bought up by these so-called 'wealth creators'.

How did Thatcher destroy our manufacturing base?

My daughter is 18, I am encouraging her to get a career that allows her to leave the UK and work abroad .. this country is in terminal decline, has been since Brexit.

Sadly OP's post is very true with many in financial services which is the industry that the U.K. relies on in terms of GDP and income tax from workers, many of whom ARE leaving...

By the World Bank's measures, industry (including manufacturing) fell from contributing 40% of the UK's GDP in 1979 to just 34% in 1990 – and has since fallen more dramatically still to just under 22%.

Interested in this topic - did a quick Google and found this article from 2011:

https://amp-theguardian-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2011/nov/16/why-britain-doesnt-make-things-manufacturing?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17153262663214&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fbusiness%2F2011%2Fnov%2F16%2Fwhy-britain-doesnt-make-things-manufacturing

Personally I think "progress" has accelerated at such a pace that the wheels are falling off the bus. A good chunk of people can't keep up and with AI in the mix it's such uncharted territory even those in the middle of it can't predict or safeguard against the unintended consequences in an equitable manner.

Currently we've ordered the handbasket we're going to hell in online it seems....

Nobody cares about your ISA.

and the businessmen are most welcome to go. They’re parasites anyway so byeeeee! ☺️☺️☺️

We were warned of a brain drain if we voted for Brexit along with wrecked environmental standards, sewage in our rivers and seas, unhappy farmers, issues with Ireland boarders, increased food prices, harder trading arrangements, need for boarder controls on food

You are quite correct, and ultimately if you want a successful and self sustaining economy you need to be in the business of manufacturing and exporting goods.

I explained this concept to a couple of service industry bosses at a dinner party, but alas those types don't get it. If you take, say a lump of steel and make it into something, you add value to it, sell it on for more than its material worth, make a profit.

That is how you grow an economy, that's how we became wealthy in the first place - all wealthy countries either make something or extract and export something (ie Oil) that others want.

We should be focussing on our traditional stronghold of defence, high precision and innovation - we can't beat the far east on mass produced tat, but we can take back a lot of the old industries.

BUT we need to go quickly, as you say, the knowledge needs to pass and many of the last of those with the knowledge are in early retirement now or heading that way.

The thatcher government was obsessed with a service based economy - her run in's with the NUM, which effectively destroyed the NCB (the NCB could and should have survived) also wiped out much of our advantage in manufacturing.

Our high carbon black coal makes some of the finest steel, making the steel local to the finishing process brings huge cost savings.

Once we lost the coal source, there was a cost disadvantage to rolling steel at numerous UK sites, leading to their closure.

I can remember standing on the gantry in the 1/4 mile long Spencer Steel Works in Newport in the 80's, up the other end of the works coal came in from the valleys by train with Hematite coming in from mines up north. we blasted that on site into iron, converted that to steel, then took the red hot billets by train, still red hot to the rolling mill and rolled it off into automotive gauge steel sheet coils.

These went straight onto trains for Honda in Swindon, Ford in Dagenham, Vauxhall in Luton, and to the docks for export to Citroen, Renault & Peugeot in France.

All buggered by thatcher (and skargill, takes two to tango)

By being obsessed with turning Britain into a ‘service enconomy’ and not investing in manufacturing.

This is her legacy.

But the Holland Patk chat has no impact on my life. None of mine went to US unis. Wouldn’t have been able to afford the airfare for one thing. It’s so removed from normal life.

The thing that worries me is that it’s not just oligarchs etc leaving - good riddance. It’s venture capitalists, creatives and innovators involved in start ups and some professionals who are well paid but not mega rich. We do have lots of tech start ups, which is great. But the moment they want to grow, they leave for the US as that’s where the investment is. I am worried as these are the job creators.

I suspect those who are native and were born wealthy will stay. But they’re generally the wealth hoarders rather than creators.

I get the whole resentment of the upper classes thing and the super rich elites, but those who say ‘oh the wealthy can just F off, they make no difference to my life’ may want to think hard about who is going to fund tax credits or state pensions in future. It will mean even less assistance for those struggling which is not a good thing.

The Tories have destroyed this country and it will be very hard to bring it back to even be half functioning. The absolute disgusting travesty of the sewage in our waterways is just one indication of things going wrong. The dysfunction of the NHS and so many unwell people awaiting treatment, some unable to work because of poor health. The potholes. The general "can't be arsed" attitude that emanates from people. I think the op makes some good points. It is true that the tax system is punitive to those who could make just over £100,000 PAYE because then you are paying to work. Meanwhile billionaires part with very little tax compared to the "little people". Something does have to change to stop the decline. I don't think Starmer is the answer, sadly, but I think he represents the tiniest improvement from 14 years of Tory mismanagement. I can't understand the mindset of the greedy Tories who are draining the resources of the country. They too have to live in a country where the surrounding environment is just so dilapidated and unappealing.

I think I can see both sides of this argument to be honest.

Trouble is the concept of the "global economy" has superceded the interests of individual nations and the "ordinary" people who make up the bulk of the populations.

The concept of "trickle down economics" doesn't seem to work. Privatisation of everything to improve services doesn't work when the focus is simply on garnering the most profit for shareholders for the most minimal outlay achievable, and automation plays a part in this and is going to escalate.

Talk of shares, investment etc goes completely over the heads of people like me on such a tight budget that it's just money in - money out at a barely sustainable survival level. We are loftily told to trust those who understand the markets, and we have little choice or power.

Short term thinking and action is a consequence of this for many people.

Trying to think about what it means for the economy if wealthy people, who have the power to do so and make those choices, leave the country taking their money with them is an alien concept - but it will leave the rest of us fighting for the scraps that remain.

The state and big corporations are now completely intertwined I feel too which is another issue altogether.

"The state and big corporations are now completely intertwined I feel too which is another issue altogether."

Agree. I think it was Robin Williams who said politicians should wear their sponsors logo's on their suits so we all know who we are really supporting.

The failings of the NHS are entirely of it's own internal creation, it's bonkers, I supply the NHS, they are the only people to bid me up, where everyone else bids me down - what I supply to a private opticians for £50 I supply to them for £250, because of their bizarre systems!! and that's the tiniest tip of the iceberg!!

Depressing

Op there’s no point in chasing off people who fund the system I agree with you there.

We are becoming an increasingly socialist country, the electorate seem more concerned with equality and fairness than economic growth and capitalist success. Personally, I absolutely agree with your points, it's so sad what is happening to this country.

You’re weird. There is literally no reason for people to quote the OP (which is extremely long anyway) when they’re responding directly to them. It’s annoying and it means that we all have to scroll longer than we need too.

Also, why don’t you @ me next time

@FuckTheClubUp trolls don't use the site often enough to know...

The NHS is run and funded by the government. The buck has to stop with them. If the NHS is overpaying for items, it has to be down to government mismanagement.