Do you have to be a bit ruthless to get ahead at work?

[Beezknees]

Not sure if it's an AIBU. Just pondering really. I've been a lone parent my entire adult life and I've been happy pottering along in "jobs" rather than aiming for a career as I didn't really have the energy with a young child too. Started a new role last year in a large company with scope for progress and promotions, DS older now and doesn't really need me much any more so I've been thinking it would be nice to do something for me and aim higher, earn some more money.

But I feel as though you have to be pretty ruthless and for "yourself" to work your way up. I don't mean being horrible to people, but not concerned with being popular or everybody's friend. I've not been there as long as some people on the team but I've been given more opportunities already as I'm outperforming them (not a boast, we are shown in the stats). I'm starting to wonder if they'd maybe resent me for it! But I guess that to get ahead, you can't worry about things like that. Is this just how it is?

I’m far from ruthless but have progressed and earn £86k. I’m not even that good at the job (in the sense it doesn’t come naturally), I just deliberately picked a type of work that had good earning potential and worked hard. I also tried to be liked by everyone (i.e. not in any particular camp, don’t get involved in politics, inoffensive) and ensured I’m easy to manage - I’ve never raised any issues or been difficult. The latter means I’ve had to suck it up at times, but all good in the bigger picture if it gets me where I want to be.

Completely agree with this. I'm senior in my organisation and have been there a while.

My boundaries are strong (eg I won't take on stuff for others because they can't be arsed or see it as beneath them, I don't work on holidays etc) but I am very skilled at what I do, not status driven and so am absolutely willing to pitch in on stuff outside my remit to make projects I'm involved in a success etc

I collaborate and problem solve well, am happy to give people my time and share my experience but don't take any bullshit and can be very direct, including with the people above me (and definitely when it comes to more junior men people trying to pass the buck).

I don't consider myself ruthless at all, and I think my friends and loved ones would laugh if anyone did, but I know my worth to the organisation and am willing to turn my hand to anything even if it's outside of my comfort zone (which is one of the reasons I have got where I am).

It took me a long time to get over my people pleasing tendencies, and stop taking workplace nonsense personally. Earlier in my career if someone suggested that I had fucked up it would send me into a spiral of panic. Now if I have I'll happily admit it, if I haven't I'll happily point that out (but either way we'll fix it)

As I've got older I have a lot less time for corporate politics, and work for a fantastic organisation where telling the CEO that you disagree with him and putting an alternative pov across is not a problem -so the culture of the organisation you work in is very important

Yes - you can be friendly and respectful but unless you act like a manager or decision maker you’ll be seen as one of the workers.

Avoid having friends from work - eg sharing personal matters, seeing them at weekends, in your head keep a professional separation as if you’ve already been promoted to director.

Be politically savvy, choose assignments strategically, and dress for the job you want.

You don’t have to be ruthless but you do need to be confident and assertive in your own worth. You think you deserve a pay rise? Call a meeting and request one. Have evidence to back up what you telling them and hold firm.

I was exactly like you (even down to the pay!) and my biggest regret was accepting that for years and never asking for a pay rise when I was way overdue one. I left after having my first child and set up a company with my DH and I wish I’d done it sooner.

Now I’m on the other side of it (employer rather than employee) I can assure you that it’s a huge pain/expense to lose a good member of staff, going through the rehiring process and then the cost of training as well… Most employers will do what they can to retain you.

You don't have to be ruthless no.
What I have learnt (I am senior at work and on 6 figures) is that you do need to outperform your peers, not be afraid to say that in a factual way and be open to other opportunities.

Networking helps.

I've been a lone parent for 14 years so I think we have to be a little bit ruthless and incredibly resilient to survive. You are probably way more amazing than you think.

They asked this stupid question when I joined this company, they asked me what my superpower was, I said I'm a single mum. Nuff said.

I think it gets harder to keep everyone happy the higher up you go. Middle management is probably the most difficult because you have to make decisions that might work for the majority but make a minority unhappy. Sometimes there isn't a decision that is right for everyone. But be kind and honest and you'll gain respect. In a professional environment respect will probably serve you better than being everyone's friend.

In some organisations. In others you need to be friendly with the right people, which usually means being a white male like the other senior staff. In others you need to be great at what you do and make it clear you want to progress.

I think successful managers have to be liars, and put aside care for others on far too many occasions.

"If you mean ruthless in an 'I'm going to put everything into this and go for it' kind of way. So what if you outperform your peers and then get a promotion? You can still be friendly, be helpful. "

Thats not what ruthless means to me. If an employee is described as ruthless, to me it has a slightly negative aspect. Ie so focused on the project, or on getting that promotion, that they would've stepped on anyone if they needed to on the way up.

It totally depends on the culture of the organisation.
I spent 10 long years wasted in a quango. I worked hard but got overlooked for promotion time and time again. Was promised the world but nothing came about. The people who did well brown nosed the right people and played the game. Promotions had absolutely nothing to do with hard work, results or being a good manager.
My roles before and after that job have been in better ran organisation where hard work matters and it's all much more transparent in terms of promotions.
Some organisations are just crap.

I think, in general, in order to become very senior it helps to be utterly ruthless.

Getting to the top is not about being ruthless, but about understanding your company's goals, and organising output in a way that delivers those, regardless of how the team feel about you personally in doing so.

From early on in my career, I actively chose not to worry about what people thought of me. I stand out anyway working in finance and not coming from a stereotypical background, and I've owned that.

This means I'm now on a very good high salary, and am currently being pursued by another company to join them instead.

During my career I've had highs such as delivering before certain target dates and achieving significant bonuses and lows such as making redundancies following a merger or acquisition.

You have to be able to not worry about whether people like you or want you to be their friend. You also needs to be able to be decisive about actions in the workplace, and own them, even if things go wrong.

how old are you Op?

No I don't think you have to be ruthless at all.

You do have to put yourself out there, and put yourself first. Blow your own trumpet and don't be afraid.

But there's no need to tread on people on the way up, they'll only bash you on the way down.

You don't have to be ruthless, but you do have to watch your back once you are there.

I'm retired but the last 2 firms I was in I was the most senior woman. You need to be the best at your job and make sure that that is noticed but that doesn't mean that you need to go around telling everyone that - you have monitoring/stats so look at whether you could be even better etc. It was easier for me as I had a job with a very technical element so I just made sure I always knew the answers or could find them faster than anyone else which meant that senior people would make me their first port of call. However I did also focus on good working relationships so people would say that I was fun to work with even if we were doing an all nighter and I spent a lot of time mentoring and developing able staff (which had the advantage that when I made my last move I took a hand picked team with me...).

Be professional, look professional and look at the work for the next level up - can you/are you already doing some of it? Is there a senior person you could approach as a mentor, could you volunteer to help on a project that is a bit above your pay grade to get exposure to someone senior? Part of it is about being seen and being seen to be part of the way to the next level already.

You definitely need to be ruthless.

I was a plain Scottish Lord and general in the army, when three weird sisters predicted I would be King.

I could’ve just let nature take its course but I took matters into my own hands to eliminate my rivals, and now I’m King.

I’m sure it’ll all end swimmingly.

It is not about being ruthless, it is about being focussed, taking opportunities and making it a no brainer to give you more responsibility. every step up the ladder I have taken has involved me leaving a job for a new more senior job elsewhere.

But when I started interviewing for people to join my team, I was really struck by a habit of women, and it was almost every woman I interviewed, to talk themselves down when it came to salary negotiations. It drove me mad. You would ask what someone was earning, they would say it, then waffle about how they would be happy to move for the same money, or worse, less!

Men never do that. They say what they're earning and then say they would only move if they got at least 5-10% more.

Know your worth, show your worth and grab the opportunities that come your way. Other people could do it to if they want, it isn't ruthless to put yourself forward, otherwise you will never be noticed.

I personally don't think you need to be ruthless. Doing your job well, building rapport and being liked has done me well so far. I'm not a career hungry person but have always been offered promotions, and have been headhunted recently.

What a load of tosh, those are the worst managers and lead to toxic workplaces. That is not how it works in most successful places.

I think we’re all defining “ruthless” in different ways.

The dictionary definition is acting without pity or compassion, cruel and merciless.

To me, I agree it’s Macbeth levels of behaviour, Putin, Netanyahu etc etc.

However I do think behaviours described in this thread - being single minded, knowing your value and asking for more, often, not caring about being liked and perhaps being very selective about making friends in the workplace as you’ll soon be their boss, making tough decisions based on business goals not people’s happiness (but both if you can!), being tactical with your networking, time and work, etc - are necessary and strategic if you want to rise up the ranks. But this is not ruthless.

Thank you for all the responses, it's interesting reading. I've never been in this position before! Essentially I am being told I'm going to be put forward for something which involves a pay rise but it hasn't happened yet, I'm being told to just keep doing what I do and the senior people will recognise it but maybe I should be asking as it's still at the "being talked about" for over a month now.

Once you realise your success at work is about having the right people think you are doing an amazing job (and not whether you are actually are - although it helps) everything becomes easier.

They won’t recognise it.

Keep asking for meetings to discuss it - it won’t happen unless you’re proactive. Lots of tips here about how to present evidence that you’re worth it. Good luck OP, great you’re considering it. Hope you find tactics that work for you.