To think Richard III clearly murdered the princes in the tower?

[Ppejfhfhrhhfhf]

It seems quite clear to me that Richard III betrayed his nephews, murdered them and usurped their crown.

Whenever I see discussions about it on social media or wherever, people always come on and try to claim he’s a misrepresented soul who’d never have done that. If you’re someone who believes him innocent, what do you think happened to the princes?

Would also be very interested if anyone knowledgeable knows what contemporary sources were saying at the time. What did the public think had happened to their King (Edward V)?

Richard III went past the end of my road during his time as Duke of Gloucester!

My view is that he got someone to do the killing on his behalf, or that one of the enemies of Edward V did this hoping for more destabilisation.

Have you read Daughter of Time by Josephine Tey? I always thought Margaret Beaufort did it.

Of course he did it. Well, not him personally but he gave the order.

Alright Henry VII 😉

😂😂😂

Oh I definitely don’t think he did with his own hands.

Surelg if someone else had done it, not on Richard III’s say so, then Richard III would’ve made some sort of statement about it? Vowed revenge or something?

Thank you @KateMiskin , that's my next book.

I haven’t, would you recommend it? I like historical novels but hate the ones based on real people where they have them do entirely unrealistic things (Philippa Gregory etc).

There was a really good documentary looking at the evidence around this and there was some compelling evidence that they were actually sent to live with their aunt. It was called Princes in the Tower: The New Evidence and was really interesting, definitely worth a watch.

Agree entirely. I can’t work out how anyone can draw any other conclusion. He’s got to have done it.

History is written by the victors. There were many contenders for the throne and several with access to the Princes and better motives. There is zero evidence Richard murdered them.

I think they were smuggled away, probably into current day France.

I was going to ask if the Op had watched this.

I don't think it's a given. So much of our perception of Richard III was cultivated by Thomas More and other tudors who wanted to create a certain narrative that was very anti house of York and particularly Richard.

They are doing more investigation which is so interesting!

www.hud.ac.uk/news/2023/november/richard-iii-princes-in-tower-new-links/

I also recommend the Gone Medieval Podcast which is so brilliant!

But Richard III became king. Who would have a better motive than the, as you say, victor?

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-princes-in-the-tower-the-new-evidence

History was rewritten by Henry VII.

Richard III was a kind and thoughtful man who cherished his young wards. In particular, Richard, Duke of York, who grew into a big, strong boy. Henry also claimed he won the Battle of Bosworth Field and killed Richard III. Again, the truth is very different; for it was Richard, Duke of York, who became king after Bosworth Field, and reigned for 13 glorious years...

(Though in all seriousness, yes, I believe he was responsible for their death, even if it was through indirect means like neglect)

👆This.

He was a very clever man. If he wanted them dead they would have Died Of Natural Causes and there would have been a funeral. A disappearance was the worst thing that could have happened and only worked against him. He wasn't stupid.

Margaret Beaufort - man acting on her behalf definitely

There’s a church in Devon? that has adornments relating to one of the princes suggesting he lived out his life there. Given Henry VII’s treatment of Perkin Warbeck I think the actual answer is that no-one actually knows.

Definitely don't think they were smuggled away or even left the tower.

I thoroughly believe the bodies found are theirs and I hope King Charles gives permission for the DNA to be examined.

I watched the programme with judge rinder and still believe that they were murdered. 90% Richard 10% Margaret Beaufort.

Would definitely recommend it and not written like Philippa Gregory crap at all

Margaret Beaufort and the Duke of Buckingham are my top suspects. Richard was already King and a popular one. Elizabeth Woodvilles marriage had been shown to be bigamous and the Princes removed from the succession. Richard had dismantled the Grey family power base which was new and hated so there was little, if not no, support for the Princes claim to the throne.

In terms of history a King dead on the battle field, a new King by right of Battle crowned is the Victor.

YABU because qualified historians, archaeologists and various experts have applied their minds to this question and there is no agreed definitive conclusion either way.