Should I give a bad reference

[NotABeliever]

I have received a request for references for someone I was directly supervising until last month. He's resigned after 11 months but we were in the process of starting a disciplinary for dishonesty, poor time keeping and performance issues. It looks like he's been offered a job in a charity and I don't know what to do.

We only provide factual references- so and so worked here from x date to x date in this role - unless someone has been dismissed which he wasn't.

I'm loathe to letting a charity hire such a bad person. But I can get in trouble as I'm not supposed to give references, HR is.

What would you do? I have the mobile number and email address of the person seeking the references.

That’s not the case @BloodyHellKenAgain
Some issues with performance maybe but cheating his timesheets by taking advantage of our WFH policy can’t be due to him going through a rough time which he never even vaguely mentioned anyway.

Isn’t it illegal to give a bad reference?

Just go with, “CF worked at our place between this date and this one. His was employed as a xxx”

Giving a legal minimum speaks volumes.

Let HR deal with the issue and do not get so personally involved

A charity can just be another way to run a business they are not necessarily places of high moral standards

if he doesn’t get the job, he might be unemployed with consequences for him personally and his family. He was a shit employee at your org for whatever reason but everyone deserves a second chance. Give a factual reference, no need to keep
someone out of work unless a very serious issue like a safeguarding risk.

and btw lots of slackers and idiots work at charities too.

Of course it’s not illegal to give a bad reference. It just has to be true.

There is no such thing as a “legal minimum” reference. No one has to give a reference at all.

A basic reference is completely standard.

The reference request may ask about absence or any disciplinary measures, which of course can be answered, if HR wishes.

I run my own business and if someone gives very basic facts like dates of employment and nothing else as a reference, I know they're trouble!

Obviously this sounds bad from your side OP, but there is always two sides and you might be surprised to hear how he views his time working with you. He should have the right to move on with a clean slate.

I worked for a manager who almost gave me a breakdown with her micromanaging and put downs and moods. I struggled a lot with my timekeeping (undiagnosed ADHD I now know) and her snappy snide responses to queries etc. just taught me not to ask for help when I didn't understand things and it led to mistakes. Yes they were my mistakes but the environment was toxic and I'd say there was blame on both sides.
Anyway if anyone asked her for an honest reference I'm sure she'd have told people to run a mile, but I left of my own accord and started work for a company with an incredible flexible working policy which fits well with my ADHD, and managers that always have the time for questions, nothing is too silly and they are encouraging and positive and you know what? I'm doing really well! I've had a promotion and two payrises since I started and I feel happy and valued.

Obviously you are leaving the reference for HR, as you should, but there is no joy in torpedoing someones second chances in life and I would reflect on why you were so desperate to do so. Because giving a bad reference when she didn't need to and actively shouldn't under company policy is EXACTLY the kind of thing my toxic manager would have done, and done quite gleefully too.

Well I’m not your previous manager @Barleysugar86 and I am not “gleefully” trying to screw his chances in another job. I categorically was not micromanaging him either.
The opposite is true - he took advantage of good faith on my part and his colleagues and the WFH policy.

I just don’t see what’s the point of references anymore if someone asks you if the person behaved with integrity and what their time keeping was like (these are questions the referee asked) and you can’t be honest.

I would email them and say you’re declining to give a reference on this occasion but you’re passing it to HR. If they ask you just say you’re not able to discuss. That’d be enough of a warning for me to be cautious…

How do you know that? Basic references are all the massive global company I work for are allowed to give. References are given by the HR dept, which won’t have even met you.

"Cheats their timesheets"?

What do you even mean by that? works 3 hours a day instead of 7.

So how was that picked up? How far down the process had this been taken!?

Do you work in finance? Or on client accounts, where you need to post all your hours to clients? Did he claim to work 9-12 on client A, 1-3pm on client B, but didn't?

Because 'dishonesty' can have serious ramifications.

'I just don’t see what’s the point of references anymore if someone asks you if the person behaved with integrity and what their time keeping was like (these are questions the referee asked) and you can’t be honest.'

I have to review references in my current role OP, and the only store I set by them is that they verify that the person really worked for the role they claimed, for the company & time period they claimed - that they weren't somewhere else (eg in jail).

Otherwise I am not interested in comments. For every ex-employer who wants to 'be honest' there is another who would be happy to write inaccurate statements for their own reasons. And that goes for glowing positive refs too - maybe the comments are genuine, maybe they got their best mate at work to write it etc.

As has been pointed out there are a lot of unscrupulous, integrity lacking ex-employers out there as well as employees being hired. It is not the responsibility of ex-employers to guide hiring decisions.

Why would you shit on somebody else’s life though? Just say nothing.

Maybe he had a really shite team leader, wasn't valued or any other number of matters and so decided to take the piss?

He might thrive in a different role.

Stop being a busy body

Well, yes. That’s why it’s down to the HR department. We aren’t allowed to give references at all.

These are all things HR should be aware of so let them decide how they wish to respond. It's not your job or responsibility to be involved.

I’m another one getting “I’m absolutely desperate to shit stir” vibes from the OP here.

Don’t give a bad reference. It’s not your company’s policy don’t do it. Just decline if you’re that bothered.

My dad has a business that has employees and they just do a factual reference because there is a possibility you can get sued now days if you give a negative one.

And what’s not to say this person may excel in this job as it’s a different environment and team?