To think good school places will be even harder to find next year because of the VAT on school fees

[Nesca1]

We are are looking at secondary schools for DS. We have our eye on a decent school bang in the middle of a solid middle class area . The school is always over subscribed; this year we would have gotten a place but last year we would have missed out because of how far we are from the school.
Usually, the school offers places to children living 1600m away, last year it was 1400m due to a large number of sibling applications.

Due to the whole VAT issue, i think more parents from the local area are going to be sending their kids to this school, rather than sending them to private schools.

Is this a reasonable assumption? I don't think parents will wait for the policy to be enacted, but they will move their year 6 children into this school.

It’s like Brexit isn’t it? It just put us ALL in a worse position and where is the money we’ve gained as a result?! A load of lies that we keep falling for whatever the political party.

This is simply a vote winner. It’s widely known no one can identify the actual cash that will be gained from this, that’s because no one is saying oh there is the VAT from Eton right let’s go fund 10 teachers. It’s not as simple as that, it’s going to COST the government.

I really wish people would stop being so naive and instead push for proper investment into schools instead of policies like this.

Shouldn’t we be looking at improving “what the state has to offer” rather than punishing those who can afford a school which serves their children in a better way? I can’t understand this “well I can’t have something so you shouldn’t be able to either” attitude. What is the obsession with bringing everything down to the same low level?

With that logic, we should prohibit any choice in the state sector. Children should be allocated their nearest school. Appeals should be stopped and everyone should be happy with whatever school they are given. After all, failing schools are good enough for some children and no child is more deserving.

Agreed. Not to mention the vast number of private schools that actively manage children with SEN out of their establishments or won’t accept them in the first place. Private education as a whole does not value children with SEN.

Firstly, that’s unworkable on mass due to density of areas and locations of schools. Secondly, classes are closed all the time in state schools to actively keep children in their rightful catchment schools.

'Dragging SEN into it' or.. just a person discussing their own situation.

Is no one allowed to talk about their life and worries because someone else might be worse off?

Anyway- I recall another thread like this where someone did the calculations - I think (I might not be recalling it quite accurately) that if schools charge VAT that means they can claim the VAT back on building projects, supplies etc and that would ultimately lose the government tax. Does anyone else recall this? I'll try an find the info but have to get off to work now.

It’s perfectly workable. Children could just be sent to their nearest school. Funnily enough, people are never in favour of this idea.

I know some who have already moved their kids to the state schools and and a few who will move them if labour get in and impose the tax.

I also know a few who have already switched to the state sector. They switched to oversubscribed schools which means that another child who would have otherwise got a place now hasn’t.

@RecruitmentGuru so ‘proper investment’ surely means increasing investment and thus taxes ? Are you up for paying more tax to help those who are dependent on state education ?
And those saying that it will deprive another more deserving child of a place, hasn’t that always been the case ? And just maybe an influx of highly intelligent motivated children and parents (if that’s the case) will hugely alter and improve the demographics of certain schools.
If labour were truly going for it they’d abolish grammar schools too so all schools had a decent range of academic abilities. Less academic kids aren’t all disruptive and not interested in learning and should have access of decent teachers.

That’s just scaremongering. Extra VAT that the vast majority of privately educated families will be able to afford isn’t going to cost the government anything.

Re it being a vote winner, it’s long overdue. I notice the Tories aren’t wading in to argue against it. I think an awful lot more families have been stung by measures far more worthy of sympathy the past few years so think I’ll reserve my sympathy for them .

Extra VAT that the vast majority of privately educated families will be able to afford isn’t going to cost the government anything.

No one knows this. Input VAT which cannot be reclaimed by private schools currently will be able to be reclaimed, which will decrease the tax take. Some will switch to state (and already have done), costing the state about £8k per child. Others will pay the increased fees by cutting down spending elsewhere (thus reducing VAT paid on things they can no longer afford). Others will switch to state and one parent will give up work or cut their hours, reducing income tax and NIC. Others will switch to state and increase pension contributions, meaning tax relief is due. It’s really not a simple calculation or a foregone conclusion that this will raise any money at all.

One DC is very high ability and would thrive in the grammar environment, the other probably would not, so I would make a different choice for them. But moving to an area with a variety of schools instead of just one rural high school gives us options.
I accept that many people face hardships in excess of our own dilemma. We were prepared for the annual increases in fees but suddenly adding another 20% per child on top is impossible.

Not when the school is 1) over subscribed due to density of area or 2) in a building that can’t be altered to increase capacity, which is the case of the majority of all pre-1900 towns in the UK.

Regardless, as I said, classes are regularly closed to force children into their true catchment schools. Councils implement this all the time.

And parents do not always choose schools based on ‘deserving the best one’. They also choose schools based on work commitments, available wrap around care, and on location if parents are divorced or not.

And parents do not always choose schools based on ‘deserving the best one’. They also choose schools based on work commitments, available wrap around care, and on location if parents are divorced or not.

A bit like private school parents then…….

It’s this leveL of naivety that the Labour Party will be counting on to win votes. It’s not scaremongering it’s reality. There are various fiscal studies out there that shows this will COST the Labour Party should they win.

‘The Institute for Fiscal Studies states that the policy will raise half a billion pounds less than Labour has committed in spending pledges. The education specialist think-tank EDSK puts the likely revenue even lower, leaving Labour more than £1 billion overdrawn on its spending plans. ‘

read this debate from Hansard on a fairly recent debate in the House of Commons. I’m not scaremongering this is reality it will COST us £1billion (conservatively).

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2024-02-21/debates/25893EE2-52BB-4F33-83AB-04B6FE18E522/IndependentSchoolFeesVAT

You think parents opt for private school because of where their work is located, what time it starts/ends, availability of wraparound care and if they are divorced or not? OK then!

I agree, it’s such a poor policy

Worse still that it capitalises on if I can have it other dc shouldn’t

What proportion of kids go to private school? And what proportion of those are on the cusp of affordability and thus truly impacted by this change? Then distribute that across the country and I find it hard to believe it would have any kind of wide scale issue.

I feel the same about the impact on the vote. I think it's a pretty niche distributed issue that won't impact enough of the electorate to have much sway on the election tbh.

@Kandalama
What makes you think private/selective schools only create people who choose their career based on salary?!

You and @hettie have made a huge leap to suggest selection and competition for the best s hoop places and facilities at 11 makes people unhappy and only driven by money.

Given that (as has been stated in numerous places) only 7% of people in this country have been privately educated and the grammar school system has not been expanded since the 1970s, this purported problem - which is allegedly causing MH issues amongst other things - cannot be the result of the status quo as c.80-90% of people were not raised like that.

The lack of drive to achieve, the lack of ambition to do anything much was the overwhelming culture in my state comp. 50% of the girls from my form had babies by the time I left the area for Uni at 18. The others picked up jobs in supermarkets or office admin. They will all be eligible for UC. Just remembered, there was one nurse. There was no pressure to be the best or to fill time with enriching extra curricular activities. It didn't produce a utopia of society's professionals. I'm not sure it produced a wealth of happy people.

An environment with a culture of being driven to be brilliant might not be for every child. I send my two to 2 different secondaries as they go to the school that best fits them. But to suggest letting kids just explore what they like will improve outcome is absurd.

If you refuse to believe that there aren't combined classes of 60 being supervised in the school hall by an unqualified member of staff in far too many schools due to difficulties recruiting teachers then it is you who is ignorant.

It’s not true for all parents. However, my DH’s office is very near a private school. He has a surprising number of colleagues who live 45-60 minutes away from the office, and enrol their DC in this particular school. The school has good wraparound, and the parents drop the kids off, work a full day in the office, then collect the kids before commuting home.

Trust me as a life long Labour voter I wish so much in my heart that such policies were not on their agenda. I’m truly stuck. It’s frustrating that people will fall for this, it’s frustrating that people like Sir Keir Starmer who HAS to know the facts, the numbers are available to him, is willing to win POWER lie to our nation. Like every leader before him.

I suspect this will be the final nail in the coffin for so many doctors and consultants I know - that can’t afford the uplift and will simply take jobs in Australia and elsewhere because there is no upside to staying in the U.K. any longer. The world class education is seen as a major draw for many families.

I agree with you. They’ve reneged on some other policies, this is such catnip for the reasons found in pp but it’s so poor as a policy.

That’s why they choose that private school, not why they choose to privately educate.