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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask which towns/cities have NOT gone to the dogs?

403 replies

Lieger · 26/04/2024 22:33

We are likely relocating in a couple of years. Just seen a thread about towns being full of people fighting and off their heads on drugs, empty high streets, rubbish everywhere, tent cities etc. Is there anywhere in the UK that hasn’t gone to hell?

OP posts:
WorriedMama12 · 28/04/2024 04:40

Floatlikeafeather2 · 27/04/2024 22:54

But Princes Street was like that in the 70s, which is the last time I was there.

OK. But whether it was done in the 70s or yesterday, its a real shame that the aesthetics of the street have been destroyed. Plus my main bugbear of all these tacky tourist shops - it hasn't been like that since the 70s.

JMSA · 28/04/2024 04:46

lifesnotaspectatorsport · 27/04/2024 21:25

@APassionFruitMartini I live in Madrid. It's paradise compared to what I hear about U.K. cities (and have seen on recent visits). Lots of independent shops and eateries, lovely parks, vibrant, laidback, beautifully clean and safe. I feel very lucky to live here, and feel sad that Brexit makes moving abroad so more difficult now.

The only place I've ever been mugged!

cinemas · 28/04/2024 06:23

Err... Chelsea has not 'gone to the dogs.' Knightsbridge up the road though is not what it was - I think it's the air quality at that end of Brompton Rd. Loads of places in London have not 'gone to the dogs,' and loads of areas are actually better than 20 years ago, though obviously, it's a mixed picture.

Outside of London.. Cambridge is nice when we go up to visit. I'm sure there's other places too, but we don't tour around much tbh. If we leave London, we tend to go abroad. We did go to Bath fairly recently which I liked, but weird vibes. The countryside around there is very pretty though.

Lincslady53 · 28/04/2024 07:11

Why have so many tiwn centres declined recently? We ran a shop right in the middle of a Northern town, which became a city halfway through our tenure. We were there for 30 years, our first recession being the early 90s. After that recession business grew fairly rapidly, but every 5 years we had a rent review. Terms in retail leases are reviews are 'upwardly only' so you cannot negotiate a reduction if the situation changes. Business rate increases are linked to ratable values, so as rent rise, so do rates. Retail in the 90s was booming, portrayed as a leisure activity. But, most town and city centres couldnt cope with the traffic and became gridlocked at busy times. The growth of out of town retail parks, with free parking, helped ease the traffic issues, but took footfall away from the high street. Our city now has 4 out of town retail parks, all large 'sheds' with no room for independants. Rent and rates continued to spiral upwards until one day Woolworths announced they were closing. The banking crash followed, with queues outside Northern Rock as customers tried to get their money out of the failing bank. At the same time, internet shopping was becoming a thing. Our next 2 rent reviews were the first ever to not see our rent increase. But as they were 'upwardsly only' they didn't come down either. Our rent, on a small shop was now up to £50,000 per year, rates were £26,000. Rates on the recently closed Woolwortdls were just short of half a million a year. Footfall had dropped by 25% over 5 years and the rate of decline was accellerating. We bhad built up a good website and was selling a reasonable amount of stock to customers across the world, but our suppliers had also seen the benefits of online sales, and all opened their own websites with much bigger budgets than we could dream of.The big stores that we relyed on to draw customers into the city were also feeling the same presssures and began to close. The council was also feeling the pinch, so car parking charges increased, but still free in out of town, bus fares increased. More shops began to close or go online. We had a revaluation for business rates in 2017, delayed by the gov for 2 years as concern that if the valuation went up it would cause town centre shops to close. Our valuation was much lower, reducing our charge from £26k to £16k. Great. No. There was a mechanism called transitional relief. This phased in the change over a few years, so if you had a large increase you weren't hit with a massive hit in that year. However, this was paid for applying the opposite to businesses with a reduction in rateable value, so instead of a £10k reduction our rates payable dropped by £1.5k. Too little, too late. That year, footfall dropped by another 8% and a business employing 4 fulltime workers for 30 years closed. All our staff got new jobs away from the city centre fairly quickly, and we just retired a couple of years earlier than we expected, but our shop is still empty 6 years later. As are many more in the area. It wasn't one thing that has decimated high streets, it was a combination of factors, but thinking the boom years of retail of the 90s would go on for ever, Gordon Brown stating that there would be no more boom and bust, followed by the biggest bust since the 1930s didn't help. The high street will not return to its former glory in my lifetime. In the seaside town near us, the main shopping street is a mile long, tree lined boulevard, with shops fronted by victorian iron and glass canopies. The outside edges, where rents are lower, are thriving with small independant bars, restaurants and cafes. The centre of the street, where the larger retailers were, are like a sugar lovers mouth. Big gaps of desolation, with the odd single shop like a decaying tooth making its last stand. Who is going to take on a large empty shop such as an ex Debenhams that is going to cost millions to get back to a good condition, and then cost millions in running costs, when they can sell online or from a cheap out of town shed? No one, that's who.

Alfreddoeblin · 28/04/2024 07:12

I’m not sure what places like Morpeth and Hexham are like for teens and young adults starting on their career journeys. After uni would you return there ? In the end they just become full of older affluent retirees who’ve made their money elsewhere and become very nimbyish now they’ve moved out of the ‘big smoke’ for the quieter pace of life. No social housing near us thank you.
Maybe nice quirky coffee shops, bookshops etc for those with a decent disposable income but opportunities for youngsters and homes for poorer folk not so much.

mitogoshi · 28/04/2024 07:49

@Lj8893

Bath has its own sets of problems. It's stag and hen season currently, drive me a bit mad, and there are a normal amount of issues, poorer situations etc. same for all cities. Yes it's bigger neighbour Bristol gets the column inches but the social problems I've heard about (due to work) include Bath. Not saying it's not nice just more a case of cities/large towns have problems and good bits.

mitogoshi · 28/04/2024 07:56

@Lj8893

I Iive nearby (n Somerset) and laughing a bit because dsd says frome is so full of drugs, open dealing everywhere? Also people being made homeless because landlords are selling/putting rent up. Wells is just plain boring, I work there sometimes. The villages have seriously gentrified so unless you are a millionaire it's out of reach, my neighbours sold in Bruton (lived there all life) as its was too stuffy now and lots of empty houses as they live in London. I like to be on the coast myself

Idontfinkso · 28/04/2024 08:17

parkrun500club · 27/04/2024 22:00

My DH works for a company which is all about return to office but has a branch in Belfast. When people try to work from home, they try to threaten people with moving their job to Belfast.

I'd just ask their London-centric selves why they think moving to Belfast is a threat!

Oh yeah, and that’s the other thing about Belfast, it’s not full of smug, southern English wankers! There are English, just nicer ones…

LordPercyPercy · 28/04/2024 08:18

@Lincslady53 that's a really interesting insight, thank you.

BitOutOfPractice · 28/04/2024 08:25

Chelmsford

lifesnotaspectatorsport · 28/04/2024 08:54

@JMSA ShockBlush OMG. Sorry that happened to you.

SidekickSylvia · 28/04/2024 09:38

Lincslady53 Thank you for your post, it's really interesting. It seems mad that landlords and councils would rather have a shop empty for 6 years, than lower the rent/rates. I suppose the reason is that they're not devaluing their asset (on paper), but it's a shame for the town centre, and makes no sense as a business model.

Delawear · 28/04/2024 10:38

Lincslady53 · 28/04/2024 07:11

Why have so many tiwn centres declined recently? We ran a shop right in the middle of a Northern town, which became a city halfway through our tenure. We were there for 30 years, our first recession being the early 90s. After that recession business grew fairly rapidly, but every 5 years we had a rent review. Terms in retail leases are reviews are 'upwardly only' so you cannot negotiate a reduction if the situation changes. Business rate increases are linked to ratable values, so as rent rise, so do rates. Retail in the 90s was booming, portrayed as a leisure activity. But, most town and city centres couldnt cope with the traffic and became gridlocked at busy times. The growth of out of town retail parks, with free parking, helped ease the traffic issues, but took footfall away from the high street. Our city now has 4 out of town retail parks, all large 'sheds' with no room for independants. Rent and rates continued to spiral upwards until one day Woolworths announced they were closing. The banking crash followed, with queues outside Northern Rock as customers tried to get their money out of the failing bank. At the same time, internet shopping was becoming a thing. Our next 2 rent reviews were the first ever to not see our rent increase. But as they were 'upwardsly only' they didn't come down either. Our rent, on a small shop was now up to £50,000 per year, rates were £26,000. Rates on the recently closed Woolwortdls were just short of half a million a year. Footfall had dropped by 25% over 5 years and the rate of decline was accellerating. We bhad built up a good website and was selling a reasonable amount of stock to customers across the world, but our suppliers had also seen the benefits of online sales, and all opened their own websites with much bigger budgets than we could dream of.The big stores that we relyed on to draw customers into the city were also feeling the same presssures and began to close. The council was also feeling the pinch, so car parking charges increased, but still free in out of town, bus fares increased. More shops began to close or go online. We had a revaluation for business rates in 2017, delayed by the gov for 2 years as concern that if the valuation went up it would cause town centre shops to close. Our valuation was much lower, reducing our charge from £26k to £16k. Great. No. There was a mechanism called transitional relief. This phased in the change over a few years, so if you had a large increase you weren't hit with a massive hit in that year. However, this was paid for applying the opposite to businesses with a reduction in rateable value, so instead of a £10k reduction our rates payable dropped by £1.5k. Too little, too late. That year, footfall dropped by another 8% and a business employing 4 fulltime workers for 30 years closed. All our staff got new jobs away from the city centre fairly quickly, and we just retired a couple of years earlier than we expected, but our shop is still empty 6 years later. As are many more in the area. It wasn't one thing that has decimated high streets, it was a combination of factors, but thinking the boom years of retail of the 90s would go on for ever, Gordon Brown stating that there would be no more boom and bust, followed by the biggest bust since the 1930s didn't help. The high street will not return to its former glory in my lifetime. In the seaside town near us, the main shopping street is a mile long, tree lined boulevard, with shops fronted by victorian iron and glass canopies. The outside edges, where rents are lower, are thriving with small independant bars, restaurants and cafes. The centre of the street, where the larger retailers were, are like a sugar lovers mouth. Big gaps of desolation, with the odd single shop like a decaying tooth making its last stand. Who is going to take on a large empty shop such as an ex Debenhams that is going to cost millions to get back to a good condition, and then cost millions in running costs, when they can sell online or from a cheap out of town shed? No one, that's who.

This is really informative about what’s happened to our high streets. Thank you

Crikeyalmighty · 28/04/2024 10:51

@mitogoshi yes- I live in Bath- I love it because it has a good vibe, a nice setting and still is good on retail and cafes/pubs etc- but it attracts some issues purely because of the fact it is attractive and still has a vibe- same applies to York, ChesterCanterbury etc- professional beggars (and yes there are some) flock to such places, the smell of weed is not a constant thing, but is 50% students rather than street livers - problem is these days the stuff is pungent- so anywhere that has a lot of under 30s will tend to get it - I personally hate it - but i would hate living somewhere deadly even more. You really can't win it seems - somewhere attractive and vibey and practical has these issues whereas you can avoid them by living in back of beyond with villages with no amenities these days and having to drive everywhere- finding the in betweens isn't that easy - locally I would pick Bradford rather than Frome - I like Frome but it is a bit too yoghurt knitting for me

Crikeyalmighty · 28/04/2024 10:57

@Lincslady53 incredibly accurate and somewhat depressing.

Brexile · 28/04/2024 11:44

ButtermilkBeetroot · 27/04/2024 16:14

Because Norwich is horribly connected to the rest of the country (probably why it's nice). I managed 6 months there but trying to go anywhere else was a nightmare. I live in rural Cambridgeshire now, 20 minutes from Cambridge, lovely, if a little flat.

Point taken. I once had a very, very long train journey there from London with a couple of bickering small kids in tow. I do have family who commute from Norwich to London but they are both hybrid, mostly WFH. I'm sure I've heard of people commuting daily from Norwich, but it can't be much fun.

Brexile · 28/04/2024 11:58

Corilee2806 · 27/04/2024 22:11

Agree with others that St Albans is lovely and family friendly but very pricey - lots of people moving out from London.

In herts and still nice but not quite so expensive - Hitchin, Harpenden, Berkhamsted, Hertford, Bishops Stortford, Tring.

Berko is permanently gridlocked, snooty as hell, and Northchurch is still a bit rough. Tring on the other hand is unrecognizable from its days as a bona fide Crap Town in the 80s and 90s - it even has a comedy festival and excellent free classical concerts in the church, plus an M&S in place of the late unlamented Budgens. Some people aren't even racist/Tory voters any more, which is nothing short of a miracle, and there is a nascent community spirit in some pockets. However, the old town is the capital of the universe for parking wars, and you're out of the catchment area for the Bucks grammars. Can't comment on the other places you've mentioned as I haven't been back for over a decade, although I always had a soft spot for Hitchin and Hertford.

alloutofcareunits · 28/04/2024 12:36

Lincslady53 · 28/04/2024 07:11

Why have so many tiwn centres declined recently? We ran a shop right in the middle of a Northern town, which became a city halfway through our tenure. We were there for 30 years, our first recession being the early 90s. After that recession business grew fairly rapidly, but every 5 years we had a rent review. Terms in retail leases are reviews are 'upwardly only' so you cannot negotiate a reduction if the situation changes. Business rate increases are linked to ratable values, so as rent rise, so do rates. Retail in the 90s was booming, portrayed as a leisure activity. But, most town and city centres couldnt cope with the traffic and became gridlocked at busy times. The growth of out of town retail parks, with free parking, helped ease the traffic issues, but took footfall away from the high street. Our city now has 4 out of town retail parks, all large 'sheds' with no room for independants. Rent and rates continued to spiral upwards until one day Woolworths announced they were closing. The banking crash followed, with queues outside Northern Rock as customers tried to get their money out of the failing bank. At the same time, internet shopping was becoming a thing. Our next 2 rent reviews were the first ever to not see our rent increase. But as they were 'upwardsly only' they didn't come down either. Our rent, on a small shop was now up to £50,000 per year, rates were £26,000. Rates on the recently closed Woolwortdls were just short of half a million a year. Footfall had dropped by 25% over 5 years and the rate of decline was accellerating. We bhad built up a good website and was selling a reasonable amount of stock to customers across the world, but our suppliers had also seen the benefits of online sales, and all opened their own websites with much bigger budgets than we could dream of.The big stores that we relyed on to draw customers into the city were also feeling the same presssures and began to close. The council was also feeling the pinch, so car parking charges increased, but still free in out of town, bus fares increased. More shops began to close or go online. We had a revaluation for business rates in 2017, delayed by the gov for 2 years as concern that if the valuation went up it would cause town centre shops to close. Our valuation was much lower, reducing our charge from £26k to £16k. Great. No. There was a mechanism called transitional relief. This phased in the change over a few years, so if you had a large increase you weren't hit with a massive hit in that year. However, this was paid for applying the opposite to businesses with a reduction in rateable value, so instead of a £10k reduction our rates payable dropped by £1.5k. Too little, too late. That year, footfall dropped by another 8% and a business employing 4 fulltime workers for 30 years closed. All our staff got new jobs away from the city centre fairly quickly, and we just retired a couple of years earlier than we expected, but our shop is still empty 6 years later. As are many more in the area. It wasn't one thing that has decimated high streets, it was a combination of factors, but thinking the boom years of retail of the 90s would go on for ever, Gordon Brown stating that there would be no more boom and bust, followed by the biggest bust since the 1930s didn't help. The high street will not return to its former glory in my lifetime. In the seaside town near us, the main shopping street is a mile long, tree lined boulevard, with shops fronted by victorian iron and glass canopies. The outside edges, where rents are lower, are thriving with small independant bars, restaurants and cafes. The centre of the street, where the larger retailers were, are like a sugar lovers mouth. Big gaps of desolation, with the odd single shop like a decaying tooth making its last stand. Who is going to take on a large empty shop such as an ex Debenhams that is going to cost millions to get back to a good condition, and then cost millions in running costs, when they can sell online or from a cheap out of town shed? No one, that's who.

Very informative, thank you. Was your store in Sunderland by any chance? My mother worked in one of the chain fashion stores there from around 1980 until around 2010, the decline was stark. The city is undergoing some regeneration but it's focused around restaurants and bars rather than retail. When I think back to what it was like when I was a teenager in 80s to what it's like now it's awful ☹️

SOxon · 28/04/2024 12:37

Lincslady53 · 28/04/2024 07:11

Why have so many tiwn centres declined recently? We ran a shop right in the middle of a Northern town, which became a city halfway through our tenure. We were there for 30 years, our first recession being the early 90s. After that recession business grew fairly rapidly, but every 5 years we had a rent review. Terms in retail leases are reviews are 'upwardly only' so you cannot negotiate a reduction if the situation changes. Business rate increases are linked to ratable values, so as rent rise, so do rates. Retail in the 90s was booming, portrayed as a leisure activity. But, most town and city centres couldnt cope with the traffic and became gridlocked at busy times. The growth of out of town retail parks, with free parking, helped ease the traffic issues, but took footfall away from the high street. Our city now has 4 out of town retail parks, all large 'sheds' with no room for independants. Rent and rates continued to spiral upwards until one day Woolworths announced they were closing. The banking crash followed, with queues outside Northern Rock as customers tried to get their money out of the failing bank. At the same time, internet shopping was becoming a thing. Our next 2 rent reviews were the first ever to not see our rent increase. But as they were 'upwardsly only' they didn't come down either. Our rent, on a small shop was now up to £50,000 per year, rates were £26,000. Rates on the recently closed Woolwortdls were just short of half a million a year. Footfall had dropped by 25% over 5 years and the rate of decline was accellerating. We bhad built up a good website and was selling a reasonable amount of stock to customers across the world, but our suppliers had also seen the benefits of online sales, and all opened their own websites with much bigger budgets than we could dream of.The big stores that we relyed on to draw customers into the city were also feeling the same presssures and began to close. The council was also feeling the pinch, so car parking charges increased, but still free in out of town, bus fares increased. More shops began to close or go online. We had a revaluation for business rates in 2017, delayed by the gov for 2 years as concern that if the valuation went up it would cause town centre shops to close. Our valuation was much lower, reducing our charge from £26k to £16k. Great. No. There was a mechanism called transitional relief. This phased in the change over a few years, so if you had a large increase you weren't hit with a massive hit in that year. However, this was paid for applying the opposite to businesses with a reduction in rateable value, so instead of a £10k reduction our rates payable dropped by £1.5k. Too little, too late. That year, footfall dropped by another 8% and a business employing 4 fulltime workers for 30 years closed. All our staff got new jobs away from the city centre fairly quickly, and we just retired a couple of years earlier than we expected, but our shop is still empty 6 years later. As are many more in the area. It wasn't one thing that has decimated high streets, it was a combination of factors, but thinking the boom years of retail of the 90s would go on for ever, Gordon Brown stating that there would be no more boom and bust, followed by the biggest bust since the 1930s didn't help. The high street will not return to its former glory in my lifetime. In the seaside town near us, the main shopping street is a mile long, tree lined boulevard, with shops fronted by victorian iron and glass canopies. The outside edges, where rents are lower, are thriving with small independant bars, restaurants and cafes. The centre of the street, where the larger retailers were, are like a sugar lovers mouth. Big gaps of desolation, with the odd single shop like a decaying tooth making its last stand. Who is going to take on a large empty shop such as an ex Debenhams that is going to cost millions to get back to a good condition, and then cost millions in running costs, when they can sell online or from a cheap out of town shed? No one, that's who.

Southport ! once a fine Victorian attractive town centre, Lord Street, Rotten Row, Esplanade, Wayfarers Arcade, Department Stores, civic pride, still has an excellent book shop ‘Broadhursts’

Great post, @Lincslady53 informative, wry

Crikeyalmighty · 28/04/2024 13:42

The other big problem is that as so many places have turned to total shit is that anyone with flexibility, the wherewithal , and enough motivation are often moving and all gravitating to 'the same' places (ones on here that are hanging in there ) - the towns that have really deteriorated do so even more as people with cash and options move out - making them even less of an attraction for good retail or hospitality- be that big chains or cute indie shops. We had a brand new Zara here last year- it goes across 5 former shops- and that is because footfall is consistent most of the year and we have a reasonably well off demographic (although more mixed than people might think)

I don't know what you do about it but certainly in the southern half of the UK and London building some good shared ownership developments as well as some strong HA developments can only be a good thing if it keeps demand and services 'local' - further north apart from very posh areas it seems less of an issue on the buying angle as you can still it seems find small homes under£200k , but rental wise it still seems to be an issue .

ginoclocksomewhere · 28/04/2024 13:56

Lj8893 · 26/04/2024 22:46

Bath is still lovely (although the price reflects this!)

York didn’t seem to have many issues like those you mentioned when I visited, however I’m not sure of the suburbs.

I think most places have bad areas and good areas.

Bath has a massive crush and homelessness problem.

Hartley99 · 28/04/2024 14:22

PotatoPudding · 26/04/2024 22:57

Almost everywhere in East Anglia.

You obviously haven't been to Colchester. I live there (unfortunately). Total dump. We now have the population of a small city crammed into a market town. The traffic is horrendous – so bad, in fact, that I hardly bother going out. I've given up yoga, for example, because I can't face the car journey after work.

The villages and suburbs have also been ruined. My local woods have been hacked down to make way for a new housing estate, and at the other end of the village a second massive estate has been built that, frankly, is more like a new town. Planners seem to think you can jam as many rabbit hutch houses on top of one another as you like and it will make no difference. They obviously don't get woken up at 3am by screeching engines and the explosions of modified car exhausts. There are just too many people, full stop. Normally, the one upside to overcrowding is that you get nice shops. I mean, the more people there are, the greater the demand, right? But the town centre is grim. We had a lovely big Debenhams that has now gone, as has Next. Even the town library is a dirty, smelly dump. About the only nice thing is the Victorian park.

JenniferBooth · 28/04/2024 14:43

@Hartley99 Ive seen the Bellway development. They were bigger houses

JenniferBooth · 28/04/2024 14:45

At least you have Fenwicks Braintree hasnt got a department store. Absolutely nowhere to have a bra fitting since Townrow went

PotatoPudding · 28/04/2024 14:59

Hartley99 · 28/04/2024 14:22

You obviously haven't been to Colchester. I live there (unfortunately). Total dump. We now have the population of a small city crammed into a market town. The traffic is horrendous – so bad, in fact, that I hardly bother going out. I've given up yoga, for example, because I can't face the car journey after work.

The villages and suburbs have also been ruined. My local woods have been hacked down to make way for a new housing estate, and at the other end of the village a second massive estate has been built that, frankly, is more like a new town. Planners seem to think you can jam as many rabbit hutch houses on top of one another as you like and it will make no difference. They obviously don't get woken up at 3am by screeching engines and the explosions of modified car exhausts. There are just too many people, full stop. Normally, the one upside to overcrowding is that you get nice shops. I mean, the more people there are, the greater the demand, right? But the town centre is grim. We had a lovely big Debenhams that has now gone, as has Next. Even the town library is a dirty, smelly dump. About the only nice thing is the Victorian park.

I live close to Colchester and visit once or twice a month for the shops and to visit friends. I have been going for almost 20 years. It used to be an absolute shit hole but in the last five years, I feel it’s improved significantly. Traffic going into Colchester is particularly bad but the park & ride is great.

My friends who live there absolutely love it. They’re different ages and different backgrounds but all really enjoy living there. I wouldn’t personally live there but that’s because I don’t have any desire to be in a city.