ND masking in girls - more questions

[seriouslynonames]

Hi, I started a thread a few weeks back https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5024307-to-ask-about-nd-masking-in-girls-school-say-she-seems-fine

I wanted to update and ask a further question or two.

Long story short - 8 year old DD (year 3) 'fine in school' but very different story at home. I previously asked whether she could be masking so completely at school as school say her needs are being met and she is 'totally fine all day'.

Since my first thread we have had a diagnosis of ADHD.

We were not able to convert to a joint assessment for autism too, but the assessor did say she thought we should consider an autism assessment. Still waiting for the written report so not taken action yet.

We feel like school are shutting down the conversation about her needs/support and I get the feeling they don't think much of our parenting. They are not authorising any of the part or full days she has missed due to anxiety (she doesn't have a formal diagnosis of a mental health condition and they won't accept me telling them it's anxiety).

I want to go back to my original question - given how convinced school are that she is totally fine.

Could DD be suffering from 'anticipatory' anxiety about school and actually really be fine once she gets there? Like anyone might worry about an event in advance but relax and enjoy themselves once there.... So the anxiety is all beforehand, but then she stops feeling anxious and is relaxed and happy all day. Is that possible?

Or is excellent masking more likely? I had reached the conclusion that her anxiety about school is because the school environment just doesn't feel good to her. Too many demands and rules and a few sensory things. This is what I have understood from what she tells me.

But I am questioning myself because of what school say, and because she isn't angry or explosive as soon as she comes out of school, it's usually later on. She will often say school was fine and be smiling when she first comes out.

I know it's hard to say when you haven't met her!! But if anyone has experience of their child being worked up about going to school but then actually being fine when at school it would be helpful to hear.
Thanks!

I am autistic and school for me was high masking until at home where I know I was totally different just to cope, hated the anxiety that came with going to sleep for example because I knew I had to go back to school.

YOU KNOW BETTER so if you are not getting the school to take you seriously, are you able to seek out a different school. Its so important that she knows you are advocating for her, and some schools look great on paper but if they are not listening, seek another opinion.

My son is also autistic albeit mild, or high functioning like me, but we struggle with a few things. He did attend a school in West Midlands which did not give a toss about my concerns, so I moved, he attended a different school that understood his needs and he blossomed, thankfully. But his life at the other school made him anxious, and withdrawn.

I sought help here and they were great at the time.

National Autistic Society (autism.org.uk)

Being autistic means that at work you are high masing, you act "normal as its demanded of you. This starts early on in girls, and autism in girls shows up differently due to masking. Your DD is lucky to have you advocating for her but unfortunately you will need to jump through many hoops to get heard prior to diagnosis.

But I want to point out that even with the diagnosis you may not get the help from your current school if this is their outlook now.

Very best of luck.

It could be a mixture that your daughter is masking really well and some anticipatory anxiety about how things will be once there. Unfortunately the only way to deal with that is to get the school on board with reasonable adjustments.

What might be good is for the first half hour or hour when she gets home, have a quiet spot set up in her room or somewhere in the house. Have some sensory lights or noise and give some stimulation but low key. Don't ask questions about how her day was straight away and just let her go destimulate for a while. This may reduce the outbursts because her brain has had time to calm down from the overwhelm of the day.
In the mornings when getting up, focus on each step, for example just get out of bed and see how you feel, then just get breakfast and see how you feel, then just get dressed and see how you feel etc, this might ease anticipating anxiety because she's only focusing on the next step (in her mind to appease you) and then by the time she's dressed and ready to go leaving the house might be easier. Doesn't work for everyone but I have seen some people having success with it.

I'm regards to school, don't let their mindset get you down. I have now a diagnosis for ADHD but according to my teachers I was just too chatty and distracted people. No one ever looked into why I was constantly off or going to the nurses office. Nor why I would ask to go to the toilet but just go for a walk to regulate myself. Now in my 30s it's obvious they didn't understand ADHD in girls.

what do you want the school to do? If she doesn't have any problems there, then she doesn't have any problems there.

Thanks @HopeFloatsAbove and @Nn9011

@noshadowatnoon assuming she is masking at school, and that what she tells me about how school impacts her while she is there, I would like to talk to school about a few other possible adjustments they could make that might help her feel more comfortable at school, and thus more ready to learn. And if she is more comfortable at school I would hope that would reduce her anxiety at home in the mornings and evenings.

@HopeFloatsAbove glad you had a good experience by changing school. We are not at that point yet as I think she would find it hard to start over with new friends. But it's something we have added to the list to consider, and she has asked herself to change on days she has been really anxious.

Thanks for the tips @Nn9011 we have learned the hard way to take things one step at a time in the morning, we are as low demand as we can be to the point where I get her dressed while she is doing something (anything) else to distract her (she is capable of dressing herself though!).

Have you ever done a very social activity or event where you enjoyed it at the time but your social battery is empty and you just need to chill quietly and recover. If you did it everyday you'd stop coping.

It's possible she's genuinely fairly ok, or she's pleased to be out, but needs a lot of time to recover.

If she’s coping in school you need to focus on home. It does get better with age.

She may be coping now, but many girls struggle to keep masking once they go through the transition at secondary. So support such as an EHCP is worth trying to get now as it takes time. As an aside, the fact that she is masking is a sign of not coping.

I think it's really hard to tell.

My 12-year-old ND child has anxiety about school. School has always said they look fine when they are there. Sometimes they say they are 'trying' to get dressed and it looks like they are just sitting on the bed. They've said they are 'trying' to go into school and are just sitting in the car not moving. From being very familiar with them I think they are trying but really struggling. I think some of the time at school they are ok, relaxed, with their friends, but a lot of the time I think they are in a state of alert and their way of coping with it is by joking, being likeable.

Both of my children mask at their dad's house. When they come back they are on 'best behaviour' for a bit. In some ways I kind of enjoy it, because it's nice to have a bit of peace and 'easy' parenting. But it feels a bit brittle and shiny. It wears off after a while and I get the explosions. So yes, a delayed response to masking can be normal.

I would suggest applying for an EHCP directly to the local authority. If school don't see what you see you might not get one but it's worth trying.

Definitely request an EHCNA.

You need to challenge the school not authorising absences that are due to DD’s MH/SEN. Email the school requesting the absences are authorised. State the regulations (Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2006) make clear where a pupil is absent because they are unable to attend due to their medical needs the absence must be regarded as authorised. Go on to say the DfE’s attendance guidance states unless the authenticity of the illness is genuinely questioned the absence must be authorised.

Appearing to cope ‘fine’ (DC aren’t really ‘fine’) at school but exploding at home is known as the coke bottle effect and signifies unmet needs at school.

If the school is unable to meet DD’s needs or haven’t identified or don’t understand her needs in the first place they need to support an EHCNA request and outside agency support.

but if she is not having issues in school, then there is nothing to deal with in school. You cant deal with issues in school that are not presenting there in any way. All children are different at home and school

That’s the whole point, DC like the OP’s are not actually ‘fine’ in school. It is just the school are failing to recognise the signs and her unmet needs. There are unmet needs at school. There are educational issues that need dealing with. That is what the coke bottle effect means.

It isn’t like your average DC being different at school and home. It goes far beyond that. And comparing the two show a lack of understanding of DC with SEN with this type of presentation.

no, you are showing lack of understanding. WHAT do you want the school to do? They dont have any sort of magic wand. They dont even have an issue to deal with. You are saying the school has to change in some way, when the pupil is FINE at school!

No, I am not the one showing a lack of understanding.

Again, DC displaying the coke bottle effect are not ‘fine’ in school. Quite the opposite. The coke bottle effect means there are unmet needs and there are issues that need support. As does EBSA.

As I have already posted, if the school is unable to meet DD’s needs, haven’t identified her needs &/or the provision she reasonably requires, or don’t understand her needs in the first place or the provision she requires they should have made an EHCNA request and outside agency support. The school should also be authorising the absences where DD is unable to attend because of her MH/SEN. And, if it is clear DD will miss 15 days, including cumulatively over the year, the school should either be making alternative provision or referring DD to the LA so the LA can meet their duty under s19 of the Education Act 1996 so that AP (as well as part time school or instead of school, depending on needs) can start as soon as possible and at the latest by the sixth day to ensure DD receives a suitable full-time education.

you are saying you want the school to authorise absences. That makes exactly zero difference to anything. It certainly changes absolutely nothing for the child. So no, that does not in any way "meet" any of these "unmet needs" you keep going on about. it just shows you don't know what you are talking about.

You say you want the school to contact outside agencies. And say what? here is a child who is fine at school? As someone who is closely involved with such an outside agency, your chances of being picked up is between nothing and zero. picked up and done what with? the child is fine at school. They are overwhelmed with children who are not fine at school

So when I asked what you wanted the school to do, your answer was record things differently on a piece of paperwork that the child will never even see, and tell someone else to do something, when you still have not said what you think can be done

And say what? here is a child who is fine at school?

Again, OP’s DD is clearly not fine at school.

I know perfectly well what I am talking about. You on the other hand clearly don’t have a clue. I too do this day in, day out, supporting parents to get their DC’s needs met. It is a shame a professional who claims to work in this area cannot see that this child isn’t fine in school just because the school claim they are. Sadly there are far too many professionals who can’t see some pupils are not fine in school. So many if fact there is even an organisation called ‘Not Fine in School’.

Of course having absences accurately recorded is important, especially when looking at AP and an EHCNA. Both of which can meet unmet needs. It is also important to protect the OP.

Your last two paragraphs show you don’t understand the SEN system despite claiming to work in one. Outside agencies can support with EBSA and where necessary support the LAs s19 duty. They can also assess DD’s needs and provide recommendations on the provision reasonably required. This can happen within and outwith the EHCNA process. This can feed into an EHCP. An EHCP could provide therapies, AP, an alternative school which may be more appropriate, emotional literacy support, social support… Sadly too many professionals incorrectly tell parents their DC won’t get or doesn’t need an EHCP, but the parents go on to successfully request themselves even if they have to appeal.

In an ideal world the sen co would suggest for and collaborate with you re reasonable adjustments. That doesn't seem likely.

I think you need to come in with a list of things you'd want implemented.

Some teachers are good with this some not.

You have to articulate to them where you think the struggles are and what you'd have them adjust to help her through the day.

what therapies do you wan this child to have, and why is it anything to do with the school, as she is fine there?

Again, DD is not fine in school.

It is relevant to the school because it is related to OP’s DD needs at school. It is also a special educational provision in an EHCP and in F and sometimes takes places at school or outside school but during school time.

Therapies that can be included in an EHCP include MH therapies (such as play therapy, art therapy, animal assisted therapy) which would help DD’s anxiety. It can also include OT, include SIOT, which would help since OP mentions sensory needs. Better met sensory needs could help DD during school hours. SALT and OT can both help with emotional regulation and social difficulties. SALT will be helpful if OP’s DD does have ASD as is suspected. This therapies can be part of EHCPs even when DC wouldn’t meet the normal thresholds for NHS services. These professionals can also feed into the day to day provision at school so school bet meets DD’s needs. They can feed into AP too if that is necessary.

Again, OP’s DD is clearly not fine at school.
But I agree with the other poster, the school has a school full of pupils. If a pupil presents as fine, which is what they see, no matter what issues they have once they walk out the school doors, the school can’t do much, the fighting tooth and nail schools, principals, teachers, parents have to do to get funding and help allocated is horrific- my friend was sending off forms and ringing left right and centre and her daughter had very obvious behavioural, social and physical issues that were part of her daily school life. All the school sees is ‘fine’ and puts a mental tick mark against op’s daughter’s name. But sometimes someone will put their head above the parapet and help. I hope you get help op x

She is not fine in school. She is heavily masking to appear to be fine in school.

There will likely be a point when she can't mask anymore. For mine, she was 15. We went from "fine", doing 9 GCSE's and predicted 6's at least, to broken. Literally overnight.

An AuDHD dx later, 2 years out of education and she's still not fine. She's barely functioning, and that's with a lot of scaffolding and support. Pre breakdown, no one had any clue. Teachers, medical professionals, family, no one.

The school can do more. Just because a school sees the pupil is fine doesn’t mean they are. They just aren’t recognising the signs or understanding DD’s needs. OP’s DD clearly isn’t fine otherwise she wouldn’t be experiencing the coke bottle effect or EBSA. Sadly this happens too often. I am perfectly aware how difficult getting support can be. That isn’t a reason not to pursue it. It would be 100% easier if professionals didn’t lack understanding.

I would say that where a child is not being disruptive, and is achieving in an academically average way (regardless of their potential), it is very convenient for schools not to recognise need. Especially if the child is quiet and compliant. I also think it would be unusual to be this anxious about school if everything was truly fine once she was there- but I’m no expert.

Is there any sign of her being bullied at all? Does she show anxiety about anything other than school?

We are about to go into battle with DC1’s school. He has just been diagnosed with ASD. He’s 8. Have been raising concerns for years - the only one school recognised was his anxiety levels. Lots of interesting snippets on the form they completed for the assessment. Turns out he probably has a lot of speech and communication issues - none of which have been identified, or even acknowledged, by school. So no. I wouldn’t take their comments at face value. In view of her diagnosis, I’d be pushing for an assessment as to whether there may be unrecognised needs that aren’t being met.

Fine in school is sometimes a catch all for compliant, quiet and under the radar.

My son AuDHD, was "fine in school" but extremely anxious at home and cried every time he went in. School refused any support and his attendance was ridiculously low.

We forced school to put in place reasonable adjustments and a SEN plan. He started going back in more. His grades shot up. He went to high school and luckily they SAW him.

He is now thriving.

School can do something but you will have to push. Those absences should be authorised. Mental health issues are just as debilitating as physical. Is your GP sympathetic? Any way they would write a letter?