to sleep train my baby?

[chickpea1982]

Ok, so I'm only partly asking if AIBU, more posted here for attention!

I have a nearly 8 month old baby, breastfed, who co-sleeps with me at night. During the day she usually sleeps in her pram, or in her car seat if we are out. Sometimes in my bed. Other than when she falls asleep in the car, she is almost always breastfed to sleep.

At night she will sometimes wake a couple of times, have a feed, and go back to sleep. But sometimes she will wake constantly, need feeding/cuddling to go back to sleep, and I end up barely getting any sleep myself as a result. My husband has been sleeping in the spare room since she was born as we can't all comfortably sleep in the bed together.

The thing is, I'm going back to work in a week, and my husband is taking over parental leave. He needs to be able to get her to sleep without feeding her. I also need to get better sleep at night so I can be on the ball for work. We also can't keep putting her to sleep in her pram - as she gets more mobile it won't be safe without strapping her in (which risks waking her up). She has a cot in our room which she has pretty much never used!

I'd like to get her sleeping in her cot, both for naps and at night, and to be able to sleep at night without needing cuddling, so I'm thinking about trying sleep training. I really can't bear her crying so I'm finding this quite daunting. I think maybe I could cope with some controlled crying, as long as it didn't last too long and I had the option to pick her up and comfort her. There are so many different methods out there, I'm just so confused about how best to go about it.

Does anyone have any experience to share of sleep training and how it worked for you? Or AIBU for even thinking of sleep training?!

I don’t live in the UK thankfully, but I think taking the view “at least I don’t parent as bad as some [whose kids are in the social care system]” isn’t really the right stance to take?

All the best to you too.

Ah, now you are putting words in my mouth. You are posting about ‘saving children’ so I merely suggested channelling that energy into children who actually need it, instead of trying to save those in deeply loving homes, such as my child.

Anyway, it’s clear to see you are super emotionally balanced.. good luck with the next 15 odd years, hope they are as easy as the first lot😁.

@Nosleeptraininghere So if baby doesn't get distressed by non CIO "sleep training" (for want of a better term) is this OK?

I agree that baby's needs should be responded to, but you are assuming that a breastfed baby in particular wants boob for milk. This is simply not true. They feed for many reasons, sometimes to literally use mum as a dummy. Mum is allowed personal boundaries too, if she doesn't want to be used as a dummy that should be OK. So to swap boob for cuddling to sleep or rocking, that's not responding to a baby's needs?

I also agree with you that some parents have unrealistic expectations of babies sleep. But I would disagree that every parent looks to make a change to sleep (and therefore stumbles upon or asks for advice on sleep training) because they are on their knees with sleep deprivation, and isn't looking for baby to sleep through - but for baby to sleep at least a few hours a night. Sleep deprivation is not good for anyones health, and it's quite simply dangerous. What if mum has other kids that she cannot and does not have the energy or capacity to deal with toddler tantrums, running around the park with them etc etc. What about that child's needs? So in that sense, SOME good sleep is the goal - and sleeping independently may be the only way to achieve that, depending on that family's circumstances.

I tried cosleeping with one of mine, and I was a cripple every morning when I woke up. I have a chronic bad back after slipping a disc a few years ago. I am sure there are other reasons why people can't co sleep, my situation is just one example. Luckily mine happily went in his cot after the tiny newborn days. As for naps, I could not have contact napped as I also had a 3YO to care for (but again not a problem as he didn't need to contact nap). But for those mums who's baby won't go in their cot, and can't co sleep and can't contact nap, what would you suggest? Do you have other children?

I am not saying I approve of CIO - I don't- but I understand that extreme sleep deprivation is not something that mums should be pressured into thinking they should just accept. Does mums mental and physical health not matter? What age does a baby have to get to until other members of the familys needs also count?

Another vote for this

@Nosleeptraininghere sleep deprivation makes you a worse parent. The association between stress and sleep deprivation is so well established it is used as a form of torture so its not shocking that it has a negative impact on your ability to parent as well.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30762410/
This in one of their key findings.
"We also found that actigraphic measures of poor and insufficient maternal sleep were associated with less observed positive parenting, even when controlling for the cumulative risk index and maternal age, employment, and family size."

I have searched but have never found d a study that shows that sleep training has long term negative impacts on a child. If you have one ( a per reviewed scientific paper) I would love to read it.

I’m not sure whether you appreciate that two things can be true at the same time. Sleep deprivation can make you a worse parent AND sleep training can be detrimental to a child’s development. However, I think you’ll agree that it’s easy to measure the impact of sleep deprivation on a day to day basis, whereas it’s less easy to measure the impact of sleep training over the long term. That requires looking back into childhood, when a variety of different things will have impacted a child’s development by that point.

I don’t see how that makes it ok to sleep train though? Just because there isn’t definitive evidence that it’s harmful, doesn’t mean it isn’t. There’s a reason it feels so wrong to so many parents, just through their parental intuition alone. I’d also argue it’s harmful to a parent’s mental health due to guilt in later years. Look at how many people on here are having an emotional reaction to what I’m saying - that comes from a place of guilt.

All of that said, child psychologists are starting to suggest that sleep training and other methods we use to disconnect children from us, are actually leading to anxiety and mental health issues in teenagers. There’s a lot of books by Sarah Ockwell-Smith that you may find interesting. I think that parents who can easily switch off to their child’s needs by sleep training are also likely to ignore or minimise other feelings (saying “don’t be silly” or “you don’t need to cry about that” for example), which DOES lead to later mental health issues and distrust of one’s own feelings.

I think you raise some good points. I don’t think these reasons are good enough to justify sleep training though, no. Parents can do shifts (we slept in shifts for a long time), or they can try to get family or other support. Ultimately though I do think most sleep issues are down to an underlying need not being met. Parents can try to find out what that need is. We co-slept because she would wake at say 12am, come in my bed and sleep a full night next to me, whereas she woke numerous times in her own room. She obviously wanted closeness, so I gave her that. A lot of parents don’t though, as they are worried about “creating a rod for their own back” or whatever else. That’s why they are struggling.

I’ve never cared what others think and have always just done what my baby needs. More parents should do that.

OK my son would cry unless on me even co sleeping would wake every half an hour to feed. My partner worked out of the house and was gone up to 16 hours a day,we have no support my in laws were dead and it was covid so we weren't allowed to see anyone anyway. I was also had a 7 year old step son I needed to home school.

I ended up with post partum depression and was suicidal due to extreme sleep deprivation. My experience will be different to everyone else's experience but sorry in no world would me being dead and leaving my child without a mother have been better for him.

I don’t think anyone has said that your son would have been better off under those circumstances. It sounds like a tough time and I’m glad you clearly got the help you needed to feel better.

Quite obviously they are better people, because they aren’t willing to neglect their child and leave them crying

Sorry but what you are saying is contradictory. More parents should meet their child’s needs.. but only in a way you see fit?

Parents are meeting their child’s needs when they chose to sleep train. No one decides to sleep train because they can’t be arsed and don’t care about their children’s needs, it’s quite the opposite. They have identified the way they are living is unsustainable and chose to do something about it for the sake of their mental health, allowing them to be fully present and happy parents and in turn, happy children.

You’ve had one DC with a supportive husband and family, that’s really great for you but you must recognise other scenarios exist outside of this? Mums working full time, complex health needs, PND, other DCs, other DCs with additional needs, DH working shifts, no family support, single parents, the list goes on. You can’t apply your one experience with one DC and expect it to work for everyone.

You have also said parents who sleep train feel guilty, where have you picked that up? I think you might be projecting here.

I do recognise that other people have different experiences. It’s up to them to choose how to cope with them. I personally disagree with sleep training. The OP asked people’s views and I gave mine.

The guilt thing is twofold. One, I see a lot of older parents commenting on anti sleep training posts saying they wish they had never done it. Two, I often get a lot of people who have sleep trained trying to justify it to me. It’s basic psychology to understand that that comes from a place of guilt.

Parents can't always do shifts. My husband took over being default parent for our 3YO, who often got up at 5am. For him to come to bed at midnight, then sleep 5 hours (broken, as he'd hear baby waken every hour), then work a high pressured full time job was not feasible. We also don't have family nearby so that wasn't an option.

I agree that none of my reasons are good enough to justify CIO - but what about non CIO or very gentle versions which I described in my other post? You just keep coming back to CIO which is the extreme end of the spectrum, which a lot of people on here aren't talking about.

You are basing all your judgements on your one individual experience. Every baby is different, and even siblings can be completely different, even if raised exactly the same. And you make a lot of sweeping statements about other parents and why they do what they do, which isn't fair or true.

I am not exclusively referring to CIO. From what I’ve seen, “non-CIO” methods always involve crying. There is no “gentle” way to ignore or modify your baby’s needs, no matter what “sleep consultants” will tell you.

You then, my friend, are what we call LUCKY! Trust me, the fact that your babies slept 6 hours at 6 and 8 weeks has nothing to do with you. Please don’t make other mums feel like they’re doing something wrong because their babies don’t sleep through the night in the own beds.

You’re right, it is up to each individual parent to chose how they navigate their own personal set of circumstances. It is fine that you may disagree with some of those choices and it is fine to let the OP know disagree with sleep training.. but you are wrong to call other parents lazy because they have chosen a different method than the one happens to work for your singular experience.

Ok, that’s your reality. I haven’t come across these posters and don’t feel guilty myself, but that’s my reality. Although there are real parents behind these anonymous usernames and I’m not surprised if being told they are lazy, cruel parents makes them question themselves or makes them feel like they have to justify themselves to you. Perhaps you only prioritise others emotional well-being when it comes to your DD.

That’s fair enough, but what I will say to that is this: it’s interesting that men do not have a similar forum to MN where they discuss parenting or other decisions at length. The reason this exists is because clearly a lot of women do not feel enough confidence in their own choices, and seek to gain the approval of others via an online forum. When someone disapproves of their choices, this is found to be very upsetting and we all gather round to try to change the mind/gain the approval of said person who disproves.

I wonder whether this is because in Western society there is a push towards infant independence that is not natural, so it conflicts with women’s instincts and they question their choices.

I don’t really have a point, I just think it’s an interesting observation of this forum.

@Nosleeptraininghere
In case you think I was one of the parents "justifying" my choice let me be very clear I do not feel guilty in the slightest.

What I do detest is the holier than thou attitude of someone whose expeince in no way matchs mine. My sister made me feel like a horrible person for considering sleep training as his sleep got worse and my mental health deteriorated. You are lucky to have the support you do and not have a baby like mine. I don't feel guilty for protecting my mental health and looking after my family. I resent people like you who think they are better than me and seem oblivious to the fact that not everyone's circumstances are like yours.

I'm happy to say I think sleep training in a way that involves leaving a helpless baby to cry is cruel. I will judge away at people who do that. I don't believe parenting choices are above judgement or reproach. Smacking kids, yelling at kids are OK to judge but for some reason we're all meant to say it's OK to leave your baby to cry? Not in my world it isn't. It's wrong and as a culture we've got a weird collective delusion that it's okay. It's getting even worse with all these pseudo consultants on social media with no qualifications or understanding of child development.

@chickpea1982 why does that surprise you? Surely that's just logic? More caring parents would find it difficult or impossible to leave their baby to cry. I would never do that to a baby.

Sounds like all 3 of mine.

At circa 8 months they started waking every 30 mins for a breastfeed which obviously is completely unsustainable, so they were night weaned first from then (youngest went til 10 months with through the night feeds).

I still breastfed them to sleep, but then I went and slept in spare room and husband came in and slept with baby. We’ve always co-slept, next to me crib and cot in the nursery never used!

I went on to feed my older two til circa 16 months and the baby is still breastfeeding at almost 22 months.

during the day, we strap ours into pushchair and walk/run/rock to sleep for naps.