to sleep train my baby?

[chickpea1982]

Ok, so I'm only partly asking if AIBU, more posted here for attention!

I have a nearly 8 month old baby, breastfed, who co-sleeps with me at night. During the day she usually sleeps in her pram, or in her car seat if we are out. Sometimes in my bed. Other than when she falls asleep in the car, she is almost always breastfed to sleep.

At night she will sometimes wake a couple of times, have a feed, and go back to sleep. But sometimes she will wake constantly, need feeding/cuddling to go back to sleep, and I end up barely getting any sleep myself as a result. My husband has been sleeping in the spare room since she was born as we can't all comfortably sleep in the bed together.

The thing is, I'm going back to work in a week, and my husband is taking over parental leave. He needs to be able to get her to sleep without feeding her. I also need to get better sleep at night so I can be on the ball for work. We also can't keep putting her to sleep in her pram - as she gets more mobile it won't be safe without strapping her in (which risks waking her up). She has a cot in our room which she has pretty much never used!

I'd like to get her sleeping in her cot, both for naps and at night, and to be able to sleep at night without needing cuddling, so I'm thinking about trying sleep training. I really can't bear her crying so I'm finding this quite daunting. I think maybe I could cope with some controlled crying, as long as it didn't last too long and I had the option to pick her up and comfort her. There are so many different methods out there, I'm just so confused about how best to go about it.

Does anyone have any experience to share of sleep training and how it worked for you? Or AIBU for even thinking of sleep training?!

I just wanted to share my experience if it helps you decide. My LO is now 14 months and since about 4 months hasn’t slept well and has breastfed to sleep/co slept for most of it. I was still having to contact nap for a long time.

I personally couldn’t cope with sleep training it would stress me out far too much to see him get so upset but I think your child’s personality has a big part in how well they adjust to it!

I was in a similar situation of going back to work but I also work nights/shifts so I really needed my husband to take over occasionally. We did have more time to play with but DH started doing more bedtimes and then full nights and my LO also started nursery a couple of days a week.

Turns out LO naps great at nursery without me having to do anything different and actually he now will do pretty much all his naps in his cot by himself at home. Overnight he is just fine without breastfeeding when my husband has him but does still want it when I’m there. I’m not saying his sleep is magically fixed we still have good nights and bad but they are so much more adaptable than you think. Do what works for you but you don’t NEED to sleep train if you don’t want to.

I was in a similar situation. Co slept since birth and fed to sleep DD. Would only do contact naps and never once slept in her cot. She would take over and hour to get to sleep for bed time and was waking hourly and I was exhausted. I was against sleep training initially, then a friend recommended sleep well with Hannah and it’s the best thing we ever did. Very gentle sleep training and our DD hardly cried throughout, in fact she really surprised us with how well she did. You can progress through the course at your own rate but generally between 2-4 weeks to complete. Now we have completed the course she is self settling for naps and bedtime in her cot. She takes around 5min to fall asleep and self settles in the night. Occasionally she might need a little bit more help like when she has lost her dummy but pop it back in and she’s straight back to sleep. It is honestly a miracle as she was a complete Velcro baby and I’m so proud how well she has done. This means a better night sleep for us but more importantly a better night sleep for our DD which is important for her development. If you want more details on Hannah’s approach PM, but I would say she is a wizard at baby sleep

See sleepchiefuk on Instagram for support. An account i followed was having massive difficulties with twins within a few nights all sorted and no distress to babies.

Please whatever you do don't just let her cry it out (setting up for anxious attachment/trauma in the future).

"We are just more caring parents" - I can't believe someone would write this!!! It never ceases to amaze me how cruel people can be to each other on the internet. "More caring parents" perhaps, but not better people, obviously....

I feel for you. Had a similar experience with my first. It was gruelling. I muddled through and it took until she was about 18months for us to both regularly have a good night’s sleep. In retrospect, it really took its toll on me, my mental health, my relationship.. But at the time I just didn’t feel comfortable with the notion of sleep training.
However, I’m now expecting my second and determined not to go through the same thing so I fully intend to try and sleep train this one at some point, unless they are a miraculously good sleeper! My rationale is that with more rest and better emotional reserve, I think I would be a generally better parent and more able to enjoy the day with them.

Ultimately, follow your heart. There is no right or wrong. But your needs matter too - don’t feel guilty about meeting them.

Protest, despair, detachment is what often happens. The person you’ve said is wrong, isn’t, I’m afraid

Couldn’t agree more. Also notice how all the people with children with children who don’t sleep well are normally all the ones who “co sleep” and “contact nap”. But they are all more “caring” parents (eye roll)!!!

I really think sleep training is cruel. My baby is the same age and sleeps well some nights and poorly other nights, because she's teething and BF soothes her -- this is NORMAL! DH can find his own ways of getting her to sleep in the day time (e.g. taking her out in the pram, songs and swaying/rocking, whatever) without the need to resort to 'controlled crying'. It's just awful. And what a horrible shock it would be for your dear baby to be left to cry at night at the same time as you returning to work.

The person is incorrect. This is not proven. Protest, despair and detachment can happen with any sleep intervention (or none).

Cry it out is contentious within scientific circles because attachment theory would suggest it should be detrimental. But good quality research does not provide a strong support for that theoretical position.

I am genuinely worried that you concern yourself with calorie counting for infants. They don’t eat/drink if they don’t want to (although I bet you are one of those parents who doesn’t allow their child to only eat if they are hungry - you seem to like control).

Soothing back to sleep every 3 minutes is cruel. It’s as simple as that. You can try to justify it to me, but you have affected your child’s trust in you by doing that.

Also, you lost me at “would OF” 🤦🏼‍♀️

I’m cringing that you think I care what parents who have sleep trained think 😂😂 You can cringe hun. I’m sorry my comments made you and the rest of those who have commented feel you have to attack me.

I mean in regards to his sleep not in life, and he wasn't left alone completely, I said we followed Ferber method with reassurance and checks. It had got to the stage where he wouldn't go to sleep without being rocked and then would instantly wake as soon as he would be put down, short of staying sat up all night holding him, there wasn't much choice, which when you need to work as well isn't possible, it's not even realistic for a sahm! I didn't post for you to judge me, I gave my experience to op. I said it's not for everyone and the method has been used world wide for years, so calling it massive betrayal of trust when you know nothing of our relationship is nothing to do with you. Me and my son love each other very much and he is still very much a mummy's boy, he has not been affected by the few days it took, and everyone got better sleep him included after, meaning I wasn't sleep deprived and grumpy during the day, ie a more fun parent while he was awake.

I've never sleep trained. I just think you're not very pleasant.

Luckily I’m not here to be liked. I’m here to tell people the realities of sleep training. I am aware that creates guilt in some people and that is ok. If I save one baby from the cruelty of sleep training, that is worth it.

Hi OP. I made changes to my dd's sleep at 9 months - contrary to other posters saying you've left it a bit late, I actually felt it was the right time. My daughter co-slept, breastfed and contact napped. She could be breastfed to sleep and put down (or i'd roll away in bed)... but without me lying next to her, only for 20-45mins and never for naps.

I used a form of sleep training where I wouldn't let her fall asleep on the breast - offering the breast again would be on extending time intervals but I'd otherwise stay and reassure her. At 9 months my daughter was quickly furious rather than confused wailing - I found this reassuring! This was just for the initial putting down, but I'd respond and feed to sleep for night wakes as usual. Straightaway my DD was able to nap in the cot, night time sleep an initial 4hr stretch, and overall sleep in her cot with maybe 3-4 wakes in 12 hours which was a huge shift for us. She then night weaned herself at 12-13 months after I day weaned her (only waking 1-2/night for a quick cuddle, not asking for boob, happy with husband etc) and sleeping through at 19 months.

@Nosleeptraininghere the term 'sleep training' is wide and varied- I find that a lot of people who are against sleep training and who speak out against it always refer to the more extreme/ less gentle end of the spectrum, i.e. CIO or controlled crying.

In your opinion, what is wrong with teaching baby to be settled by other ways than BF or being held? What would you advise for the parents who have said baby will NOT be put down, or those who cannot contact nap or Co sleep, which is absolutely a valid problem for various reasons? What about a mum who's mental and physical health is suffering from lack of sleep? Sleep deprivation is a real thing, and sleep is critical, and basic human need which parents have the right to prioritise too, along with baby's needs.

I'm genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on the above - some constructive advice would be more productive than shaming mums who are most likely at the end of their tether. I'm not sure that as a group of mums we should ever be beating each other with a big stick of shame or guilt, parenting is bloody hard enough. #bekind

@Cindy1802 the OP mentioned controlled crying. This is what most sleep training involves. And it is extremely cruel.

@BurbageBrook I didn't say she didn't, I am speaking generally when saying that sleep training is a wide term and people who oppose it generally jump to the more extreme end of the spectrum.

But yes OP does mention it, with a "maybe". In my view she's looking for advice, not to just be told she's cruel for even thinking about it.

My little one wanted to be fed all through the night. I went with it for a long time but I decided to slowly break the falling asleep at the breast habit at night. I would feed him and when he started to look drowsy, take him off and sing to him. It didn't always work but slowly he started sleeping longer and he now sleeps well.

I never thought I'd be bothered about the more extreme versions of sleep training before I had a child but I now feel strongly against things like 'Cry it out'. I understand if someone is at breaking point that they use methods that aren't as gentle as the one I did but leaving a child to cry and cry (especially as its not something anyone would do in the day, or you'd hope not!) goes against everything natural hence why I've read so many posts on MN where parents have been sat outside their babies room (ironically being comforted by their partners) whilst going through these crying 'methods', because they've found it so distressing.

OP if you want to do a gentle method I'd definitely suggest trying to slowly stop feeding to sleep. If it doesn't work now try again in a couple of months. It really did help us.

Just a few things:
-at 8 months to still need feeding overnight is scientifically correct. Backed by current healthcare/clinical guidance fr UK. People saying yours doesn’t need it without knowing your baby’s growth centiles etc is WILDLY INAPPROPRIATE. So please trust your instinct and feed on demand.

-sleep training has exceptions for hunger/teething and illness so on those nights you expect broken sleep anyway. So when I saw that I thought it was pointless as especially when joining nursery it was weekly illness or teething!

-there are regressions etc which disturb them and they want comfort. I found co sleeping a nightmare during those times coz they use you as a human dummy. We split the night instead. So you both get unbroken sleep (worked around the general night feeds as I BF) and then one of you is holding baby and awake.

that helped us to survive and after a week or so it gets better and we move on.
have you considered splitting the night? Eg 9pm-2am/ 2am-7/7.30am?

also for me being tired at work is so much easier than being tired wresting a tiny human all day! We put her in the pram tired with a black out cover and she falls asleep like clockwork now so you could try that too. Plus partner can do bedtime with a bottle and shhh pat to sleep which takes pressure off.

we focused on one thing at a time eg pram nap and were consistent. Got it sorted as moved on. People here will say sleep training is ok coz they’ve don it and no one wants to think what they did is bad. For me nighttime is half their life, why would I ignor their needs at night but be responsive in the day? At this age.

when they are older and messing about just to stay up late then yeah train them. But an 8month old isn’t trying to manipulate you. They don’t even know the baby in the mirror is them yet!! Thy just want to be safe with a parent when they feel distress as a natural survival instinct.

Both of mine were like this until I moved them into their own rooms at 11 months and 9 months respectively. I’m not even exaggerating when I say they would wake hourly, all night, every night, and only settle back to sleep with a boob in their mouths. My husband could never settle them, either at night or at nap times. Moved them into their own rooms, and magic happened. I’d been delaying it because I didn’t want to have to be getting up and walking across the house hourly throughout the night, preferring to be comfortable in my own bed at least, but from the day that I moved them, we had no more than 2 wake-ups in the night, and my husband was able to put them to bed and settle them at nap time. Within a couple of weeks we dropped to one wake-up, and a couple of months later, no wake-ups at all. My now 5yo has been sleeping 11-12 hours through the night for as long as I can remember, and my almost-1yo who I moved 3 months ago has been sleeping through 10-11 hours consistently for the last 3-4 weeks. If she does wake, she puts herself back to sleep within a couple of minutes. Rarely do we need to actually go in to her, but if we do, we know that’s what she needs, as her cry is different. Hand on heart I can say we’ve done absolutely no sleep training and nothing different except for moving them to their own rooms. Obviously I can’t guarantee the same thing will work for everyone, but it 100% worked for both of mine, and we’re all happier and better rested for it!!

So to answer some of your queries:

• if the baby won't be put down (and this is most of them at least initially) I would sleep in shifts with my partner. For instance, I went to bed 7-12 and baby slept on him while he watched TV. Then we swapped. He would bring the baby up for a feed if he needed it.
• if there's no help available I'd practice getting baby to sleep in bed with you following the safe seven rules by the lullaby trust. I found getting the baby to sleep either on my boob or chest was easiest, then I lay down on my back, and slowly rolled over with them still attached to me until they were touching the bed and lying on their side against me. Let us both settle in that position, then with each breath in that they made gently release them (by keeping my hand very slightly higher as they breathed out).
• for people who aren't comfortable with bedsharing, I'd think about what aspect concerns them. Bed too high? Have a mattress on the floor. Bedding a concern? Get an adult slumbersac and with feet so there's nothing loose.
• for no contact naps, I actually don't see why not but hypothetically they can use a sling, take baby out in the pram, go for a drive. We've all had babies fall asleep by themselves (usually at quite inconvenient times!) so whatever method the baby is happy with is fine - as long as they are happy with it!

There really isn't any need to purposefully distress a baby.

I am really against sleep training, won’t go into why it’s up to your to do your own research and form an opinion on it.

What I will say is that all children are different, my daughter is almost 4 and has ALWAYS been a terrible sleeper. Woke multiple times a night as a baby and even now wakes up and spends an hour awake or comes into our bed to get back to sleep. Our son who is almost 1 is an absolute perfect sleeper, never had to do anything with him just put him in his cot and sleeps 7-7ish. Co slept with both from weeks old, no differences other than them being different babies.

It’s very frustrating i get it, but they do get better as they get older…our daughter is so much better than she used to be. She’s not purposely waking up, she tries to get back to sleep but just can’t. I’d personally say ride it out but it is your choice

Ok so firstly, I think that any crying at all is wrong. “Controlled crying” is just a name given to it by people trying to convince parents it’s ok. It is still an extended period of distress, whether broken up by periods of “comfort” or not. In my view, controlled crying is actually worse as it must be so confusing for the child.

I think what is wrong with all of these interventions is that they are not responding to the actual needs of the child. You think you are “teaching” a child to be settled another way, but what you are actually doing is ignoring their needs (e.g. responding with rocking when they want milk, or responding with shushing when then want cuddling). They simply learn that their parent is not in tune with their needs.

Yes parents are tired. However, that’s the reality of parenting. In my view, too many parents want to have a baby and still be able to live the life they did before (where they slept through). This is unrealistic. We are also fed too many messages around independent sleep. Why is independent sleep the goal? Why isn’t GOOD sleep the goal? Either DH or I held our baby for every nap for 8 months. When I tell people that they look like I’m crazy, because they have been taught that independent sleep should be put on a pedestal and why would I not want that? The fact that people see contact napping and co-sleeping as an undesirable “chore” is so sad. Why do parents not want to be with their babies? To me it feels so natural.

So in summary, I think re-education is needed so that parents can understand the realities of infant sleep and attachment theory, to ensure their expectations are not that an 8 month old should in any way be sleeping through.

@Nosleeptraininghere I see you have mentioned you are being attacked by posters, but you are the one suggesting other posters are lazy parents, cruel, and the latest being that I starve my DC to gain control(?). It is a very contradictory communication style for someone who is so consumed by emotional well-being.

You held your baby for 8 months straight and had broken sleep for almost 4 years, it’s fabulous that worked for you but that is not everyone’s reality. It’s absurd to think everyone should parent exactly how you did otherwise they are lazy and cruel. I worry about your child’s emotional health if you are this volatile with strangers on the internet, how will you react when she rebels against your parenting style? I realise you think that will never happen because you are superior, but it will.

Perhaps you should take your mountains of knowledge and your soap box and channel it into something worthwhile, such as the hundreds of thousands of children our social care system. I think it would be a real eye opener for you to see the contrasts of children who are facing genuine hardships opposed to the children mentioned on this thread who are clearly deeply bonded with their parents in loving homes. But hey, I guess waving a big stick on mumsnet makes you feel important.

All the best!