To conclude Starmer's Labour is no longer in any way "left"?

[windowframer]

Labour shadow ministers now use "lefty" as a term of abuse.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/08/middle-class-lefties-wont-stop-labour-using-private-sector-to-cut-nhs-backlog-wes-streeting-says

How can they make it any more clear what they do and don't stand for? Can you imagine the Tories fulminating about how they won't be lectured to be "middle class Conservatives", or Farage slagging off "working class Brexiteers"?

This post is not about "Labour good / Tories bad" OR the opposite. Just clarity about what "Labour" actually is.

Whatever it is . . . . . .

[Desecratedcoconut]

Are there many middle class lefties carrying on about the vat changes on private school?

[CoatRack]

The next Labour government will be more "right wing" than the Tories, in as much as they will do things that the right wingers want.

Otherwise, nothing will change; especially if we get a beautiful Labour 600, which would be delicious.

Mark my words.

[Greywhippet]

Starmer’s Labour is horrible. No hope, mean spirited, empty.

[TeamPolin]

To be honest, after some of the right wing lunacy of the the Tories and the left wing lunacy of Corbyn, I'd welcome some centrist politics. I don't think Starmer is the messiah by any means but I'm looking forward to waving bye bye to the likes of Priti Patel, Suella Braverman, Rees Mogg etc.

[BIossomtoes]

@Greywhippet

Starmer’s Labour is horrible. No hope, mean spirited, empty.

That’s a perfect description of the Tories.

[Misthios]

They tried the old-school "hard left" Labour under Corbyn and that went well, didn't it?

The world has moved on, nobody is interested in huge levels of state control, nationalised industries and all the rest of the old labour ideas.

[MrsSkylerWhite]

Oh, okay. Best vote Tory then.

Not.

[Keeprejoining]

How is someone like Starmer who thinks women can have a penis be described as sane and middle of the road. He has no respect for women and has been forced by the CASS report to pay weak lip service to safeguarding

[Keeprejoining]

Actually the railways are being quietly renationalised under the Tories

[Greywhippet]

@BIossomtoes

That’s a perfect description of the Tories.

Yes that’s the whole problem- there is little to choose between them except degrees of ghastliness

[TeaAndStrumpets]

@Keeprejoining

How is someone like Starmer who thinks women can have a penis be described as sane and middle of the road. He has no respect for women and has been forced by the CASS report to pay weak lip service to safeguarding

I think worst of all he knows it's not true but pretends he does.

Sheer lack of integrity.

[sleepyscientist]

@Misthios

They tried the old-school "hard left" Labour under Corbyn and that went well, didn't it?

The world has moved on, nobody is interested in huge levels of state control, nationalised industries and all the rest of the old labour ideas.

This we need a true middle of the road party that rewards hard work and stays out of tabloid politics. We are already in massive debt as a country why would anyone vote for a party who wants to expand the welfare state whilst adding billions to that debt burden our kids will inherit.

[TeaAndStrumpets]

@sleepyscientist

This we need a true middle of the road party that rewards hard work and stays out of tabloid politics. We are already in massive debt as a country why would anyone vote for a party who wants to expand the welfare state whilst adding billions to that debt burden our kids will inherit.

A new centre party would be the dream.

[Keeprejoining]

It's a topsy turvy world, Labour anti safeguarding the vulnerable and removing women's rights.
Tories pro free speech safeguarding, with a ethnically diverse cabinet.

[windowframer]

@Misthios

They tried the old-school "hard left" Labour under Corbyn and that went well, didn't it?

The world has moved on, nobody is interested in huge levels of state control, nationalised industries and all the rest of the old labour ideas.

Well that's an incredibly simplistic and reductionist approach, as there's a whole world of left-ish possibility between those two extremes. And many of the policies Corbyn campaigned on were extremely (majority) popular; people just didn't like Corbyn, the person, and the entire 2019 election became about Brexit.

But OK: if we agree that Starmer has abandoned everything traditionally associated with Labour -

What are the "new Labour ideas" that replace those old ones? Are there any?

To return to the thread title - are those new ideas (whatever they are, if they exist) anything that can meaningfully be called "left" as the term is generally understood?

[windowframer]

@BIossomtoes

That’s a perfect description of the Tories.

Indeed. Two cheeks of the same arse.

Both parties competing to capture as thoroughly as possible the complete lack of hope, positivity, openness and imagination that now pervades British society. 😞

[windowframer]

@sleepyscientist

This we need a true middle of the road party that rewards hard work and stays out of tabloid politics. We are already in massive debt as a country why would anyone vote for a party who wants to expand the welfare state whilst adding billions to that debt burden our kids will inherit.

But we've always had such a party, they're called the Liberal Democrats. Why do we need two?

[Misthios]

And many of the policies Corbyn campaigned on were extremely (majority) popular; people just didn't like Corbyn, the person, and the entire 2019 election became about Brexit.

Says you. You have no idea whether his policies were "majority popular" or not, what people's personal opinions of him were and what the election was about or wasn't about. If he was the messiah of the Labour movement he'd be in 10 Downing St, wouldn't he? And clearly he's not.

I haven't voted Labour since 1997 and Blair. I would never ever in a million years have voted for Comrade Corbyn, with his anti-semitic views and history of voting against things like the Good Friday agreement in N Ireland. I might consider voting for Starmer, although I am still a floating voter.

[IHateLegDay]

I feel politically homeless. Keir Starmer is a prick. Rishi Sunak is a prick.
Neither have the public's interest at heart.

This country is well and truly fucked.

[ilovesooty]

I don't think Keir Starmer is a prick.

Centrist parties win elections. He knows that.

[Misthios]

I think my main issue with Starmer is that he just seems so "meh" about everything. He's never really passionate about anything, nothing seems to really fire him up and get him going. I mean, I profoundly disagree with every single thing Nicola Sturgeon has ever said, but she at least gave the impression that she 100% believed in her message and felt strongly about it.

[ilovesooty]

I don't care if he isn't passionate. Sensible will do for me.

[Misthios]

No I agree, we've had plenty of the blustering buffoon types. But he just doesn't seem to say anything with any conviction.

[Mercurial123]

@Greywhippet

Starmer’s Labour is horrible. No hope, mean spirited, empty.

Amusing. What's your description of the current corrupt, racist and incompetent government?

[KimberleyClark]

The SDP didn’t work in the 80s, why would a new centre party work now?