To conclude Starmer's Labour is no longer in any way "left"?

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Labour shadow ministers now use "lefty" as a term of abuse.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/08/middle-class-lefties-wont-stop-labour-using-private-sector-to-cut-nhs-backlog-wes-streeting-says

How can they make it any more clear what they do and don't stand for? Can you imagine the Tories fulminating about how they won't be lectured to be "middle class Conservatives", or Farage slagging off "working class Brexiteers"?

This post is not about "Labour good / Tories bad" OR the opposite. Just clarity about what "Labour" actually is.

Whatever it is . . . . . .

Absolutely agree

Labour have to be more centre left to win its as simple as that

it’s pointless Labour being caught up in ideology to stay true to what some Labour voters feel is real Labour

Nothing has been learnt by some yet we must still celebrate Labour having the largest party membership ever 🙄 yes it was so useful that it did absolutely nothing to change policies that impact peoples lives

Nor was Blair’s New Labour. They were broadly centrist social democrats.

That’s why they got elected and got stuff that worked done.

We desperately need something similar again.

These beliefs are going to make the lives of women (real women,I mean) very difficult. Labour contempt for women, for children, is entrenched in that party. Nothing will change that.

Here we go again.

Most of the electorate have other more pressing priorities,like the cost of living, health, social care. All this shoehorning of biological women into every political thread is tiresome for many people.

@Misthios I certainly don't view Corbyn as "the Messiah". But in fact I do have an idea of the popularity of some of the policies, from surveys that were done at the time. You're clearly very angry about him - that's fine, but not what this thread is about.

What I'm trying to gauge is not whether Labour being left or right is BEST, but simply whether Labour IS in any meaningful sense "left" any more. And that doesn't need to mean "as far to the left as Corbyn". Streeting's tirade would suggest not, indeed it suggests that they now view the whole epithet "left" as pejorative.

Is that how Margaret Thatcher won so many?

Neither party has any passion, vision or ambition. They're just going to fiddle around with the edges. It's like everyone in this country has decided to give up on hope, ambition, goals and growth and sit in a corner and sulk that they aren't the most popular kid any more.

I'll vote for anyone who comes up with ideas like Blair did in the 90s.

@HRTQueen Labour have to be more centre left to win its as simple as that

What about Labour's current approach or policy offering would you call "centre left"? As opposed to "centre right" (or simply "right")?

Steerings response is based on practicalities

The NHS can no longer proved for everyone that needs treatment

and people need treatment now

Labour can not save the NHS it has to change

Indeed they were. But my point is what Starmer is offering is not even as left as that (at least, certainly not as left as the 1997 version of that). By a long way.

Still desperately waiting for someone to point to the actual substance that they mean by this. The assumption seems to be that because Starmer isn't Corbynite, he must be Blairite. But he isn't; he's basically Thatcherite.

I guess Starmer’s best shot of winning is to effectively be “very very slightly left of Sunak”.

As there is nowhere for “Old Labour” to go other than to vote for him. (My parents are Old Labour types - my dad was a trade union official, we had ice cream on a weeknight when Thatcher was kicked out, - and they are going to vote for him - their only other option is the Lib Dems and they got about 7 votes in their constituency last election,)

I am definitely “Centre Left” - I want an economy that works in a country where no one needs food banks. I will vote for him if he can figure out what a woman is. Otherwise I will probably spoil my ballot.

Which is fine. But there is nothing remotely left about outsourcing previously publicly-run services to private companies. It is straight out of the neoliberal right orthodoxy that has prevailed for the last few decades and was out on steroids by the Tories. It's a policy that could easily be announced and enacted by the Tories now and nobody would bat an eyelid or consider it out of character.

You may well believe it's the CORRECT policy, but really this is just another way of saying "Streeting has given up on traditional Labour/Left values and solutions, accepted that neoliberalism has got it right and There Is No Alternative". Isn't it?

Forgot to say - last election I found choosing who to vote problematic. Corbyn was so far left of me that I couldn’t see him and Johnson so far right that I also had to squint. The Lib Dem’s didn’t convince me they even knew what they believed in. I was also in a three way marginal.

I was a strong remainer so eventually I voted for whoever I thought was more likely out of Labour and the Lib Dem’s to get in. (Can’t remember!) I was very worried about Corbyn winning outright though - I wanted a hung parliament.

That was years ago.

She was pretty centrist compared with the current bunch of fascists.

there is nothing remotely left about outsourcing previously publicly-run services to private companies.

That isn’t the proposal. The private sector will have its resources purchased in volume to bring down NHS waiting lists. Streeting hasn’t even hinted at any private sector takeover of NHS run services.

What’s a Labour 600? Is that where 600 of the sitting MPs are Labour?

Are they? Where have you seen that?

https://www.independent.co.uk/business/quarter-of-train-journeys-on-services-run-by-public-sector-b2047763.html

Thanks Blossomtoes. This article is from over 2 years ago though, so the picture may have changed since then - either gone up or back down. Also, as the Tories aren’t in charge in the Scottish government- it’s the SNP - I’m not sure that Scotland should be included in these figures.

Increase in taxes for high earners and closing loopholes. Raising taxes is difficult for Labour at present but certainly higher earners, inheritance tax, those who have second homes will pay increased tax and of course the vat on private school fees

high investment (lower than originally planned) towards Green policies

progressive policies supporting equality (very contentious for some in regards to self id and questioning is it progressive)

Trade Unions well if you know your politics you know that Thatcher and Unions were enemies even if Starmers relationship with some unions is lukewarm they are not perceived as the enemy

not sure where any of the Thatcherite idealism is hidden in Labour planned policies

I don't think Labour under Starmer is going to oblige, sadly.

The numbers have gone up.

https://www.railway-technology.com/features/a-blow-for-privatisation-in-the-battle-for-british-railways/?cf-view

Scotland’s part of the UK, no?

Because we have a winner-takes-it-all voting system, and realistically we will only ever have either Labour or Tories in charge.

Increase in taxes for high earners and closing loopholes. Raising taxes is difficult for Labour at present but certainly higher earners, inheritance tax, those who have second homes will pay increased tax and of course the vat on private school fees

Starmer has explicitly ruled out raising taxes for high earners and the main loophole Labour were looking at (non-dom status) is now being closed already by the Tories. I'm not aware of anything he's said about inheritance tax, please direct me to it if I've missed it.

As far as I can tell the only thing in your list that is actually Labour policy is VAT on private school fees. So yes, I'll give you that. That's certainly discernibly left of the Tories.

@TeamPolin
''To be honest, after some of the right wing lunacy of the the Tories and the left wing lunacy of Corbyn, I'd welcome some centrist politics. I don't think Starmer is the messiah by any means but I'm looking forward to waving bye bye to the likes of Priti Patel, Suella Braverman, Rees Mogg etc.''

Exactly.

We need grown-up without extreme views back in charge: people who can make practical decisions and balance the books but who also are not in government just to keep the right wing press happy and to make themselves and their wealthy mates even richer...

I have had enough of the sociopathic, corrupt, racist, lying Tories and I am happy to go with sensible and competent.