To worry about my kid's intelligence?

[Booboobunnywoo]

I know this is sensitive, but honestly just looking for input because I don't know much about kids, I don't have close friends who are parents, and I don't spend a lot of time with kids other than my own.

Anyway, DD is 5 and an absolute delight, but I worry about her cognitive development. She has a very limited vocabulary, often mixes up words, and we still struggle to understand her when she's telling a story. Short sentences are ok ("I can't find my jacket") but any utterance longer than two sentences is usually incomprehensible.

She cannot seem to understand stories beyond basic picture books when we read to her. I've tried some chapter books, like My Father's Dragon and Magic Treehouse, and she sits and listens obediently, but she cannot answer any questions about them while we're reading or afterwards, and I don't think she is following along at all. She also has watched some Disney movies such as Cars, Frozen and Finding Nemo. Eyes fixed on the screen the whole time, but she's completely clueless about what's happening, often focusing on little details that are not relevant to the plot and completely misunderstanding (or simply missing) major events.

Counting's all right, at least up to 10, but she cannot write her name beyond a few randomly placed letters (about 3 out of the 7, in random order).

My question: is this normal for a five year old? Should I worry?

Sometimes kids have what are known as language or auditory processing issues too @Booboobunnywoo. I would ask school for a written assessment and take it to GP and request an urgent referral for further specialist intervention while she is still little.

Not sure films and chapter books are helpful anyway. Stick with simple picture books to build her vocabulary and understanding. Read everyday with her. Practice phonics with her.
Disney films are dreadful at the best of times, I would recommend things on Cbeebies like numberblocks and alphablocks.

Do you have any learning barriers in your family?

No, the opposite. My father and brother are exceptionally gifted; my husband and I both excelled at school. No dyslexia or other learning disabilities. All relatives I know have advanced degrees. I guess that might be another reason why I've been in denial. I knew I could not compare my kid's development to my own, or my brother's. I was even quite pleased she seemed to be average; I thought she'd be the happier for it. But I seem to have missed / ignored a lot of signs because of this.

Thank you all for the advice, though. I've already emailed her teacher to apologise and ask for another meeting.

OP, you sound like an amazing parent and I applaud you for considering whether your dd might need some help - it's so easy to be in denial or bury your head in the sand.

Given the significant parental input that she has obviously had at home, I think you're right to be asking questions. She might just be a late bloomer, or there might be something else going on. I think it would be a good idea to re-open the dialogue with the school about what they think might be going on, and what interventions they might recommend.

On the positive side, it seems that she is great socially and has lots of friends. Whether she turns out to be "academic" or not, good social skills are a wonderful advantage and will get her through life as least as much as being "clever".

But she is so little right now, it's too early to predict whether or not she'll crack the academic stuff at some point. For the time being, just focus on supporting her in the her and now, in collaboration with the school.

The chapter books you’ve described are higher level (my 9 year old average reader chooses those to read) but some of the rest sounds a little like there may be some difficulties.

I’d go back to the school and see what they suggest. It might be a case of extra interventions for her in house by the school right now x

Honestly even if she does struggle academically it makes little difference in the long game.
Yes school will be her nemesis but she will find her friends and it won't stop her being a hard working, productive member of society, having a relationship or being a decent human being.
It's horrible now when you feel they are behind but in 15 years when some of the brightest and best are derailed by life and the kids are making their own choices, you'll see that these early years are just that. Part of a journey not the be all and end all.

Everyone seems determined to tell you that your daughter is probably still very clever, but I think it's reasonable (if there are no issues with motor skills or a difficult or premature birth) to assume that she may simply have a lower than average IQ. Which is fine. So does almost half the population, and she doesn't sound seriously behind all other children of her age. If she's otherwise happy and developing normally then I don't think there's anything particularly that you can or need to do. You sound like a lovely and caring mum and are already offering all the right kinds of stimulation.

She needs a full assessment for physical eg ABC MOVEMENT BATTERY and educational. (Standardised verbal and non verbal testing and speech and language)
To see which areas are a struggle and which are not. Get a baseline. Have a plan . Is her clumsiness worsening or stable?

@Booboobunnywoo does this resonate?

https://contact.org.uk/conditions/aphasia/

My son has some mild learning difficulties, at year 3 (age 8) we are still reading picture books. He’s just started stage 2 reading books and struggles, he can write a basic sentence when coping or tracing the letters. He also still has some speech therapy and gets upset if you can’t understand him however he’s progressing at his level so we not concerned and neither is his teachers (sen school for autism).

my friend is a primary school teacher and her advice to me was to have fun with the learning they’s no good pushing it but if the child is having fun that’s the main thing. She also mentioned that a lot of the kids in reception start at completely different stages and a lot of it is teaching basic skills such as sitting and listening. I would discuss with your daughters school to see what they advise.

I recommend the orchard toys games but keep to the level she’s working at nothing too advanced. The same with books we don’t read chapter books with DS yet and he won’t sit through a Disney film. Blippi is meant to be great for help with speech as he sounds everything out

CBeebies - Alphablocks and Numberblocks are really great, as a PP said. Only short and fun. In fact loads of the Cbeebies output is fab (you probably know!)

Surely, your first port of call is a meeting with her class teacher and the school SENCo?

Yes, at this stage of Reception she should definitely be able to write her name and other basic words (even putting them into simple sentences), follow basic stories and patterns, and read some basic words.

I would echo pp that your first step is to have a meeting with the class teacher to discuss this further and see if senco needs to be involved.

I would say, based on everything you have said, that there do appear to be some developmental delays with your dd. However these could be due to a range of possible reasons, not only cognitive intelligence.

It is great that your family is now on an investigative pathway and that support for your dd will become more accessible.

I hope you are feeling ok. My son is neurodiverse and 'red flags' were first raised with me by his school when he was 5. It was a shock and I experienced quite a complicated emotional reaction, including worry, guilt and distress, so I know it can be difficult news.

Tbh I’ve no advice … but can say this .. your daughter will get to the best she can be and the reason for this is because she has you backing her up all the way .

most likely inattentive adhd.
even if the school haven't flagged anything go private with an ed psych. and have her assessed.
unlikely to be an intelligence/cognitive issue.

First step that you can do yourselves is to get her hearing and sight tested.
Then ask the school to refer her for a Speech and Language assessment. There are several signs in your description that would suggest she has language difficulties.

PP have already suggested getting her hearing tested and I would second that from lived experience. The thing that’s jumping out at me is the rhyming where it seems she’s mostly picking up on the vowel as the rhyming sound, and not the rest, and the hit and miss nature of sounding out words. That does suggest to me some issue with auditory processing or hearing loss - she’s hearing the vowel, it’s dominating, and not the beginning and end of the word.

Even if auditory issues in some way are not the full picture, they might still be part of it, and in any case would also lead to language delay if not picked up.

It’s also possible this isn’t the case at all, but having her hearing investigated won’t do any harm, and then if auditory issues are not a factor, then at least you have eliminated one possible cause.

The incomprehension of films even though eyes are glued to the screen reminds me of myself as a deaf child - I would have been able to provide a broad or simple narrative arc, but not specific details of who said what or the deeper nuances of the plot etc, in the absence of captions when I was young, but I would have been very visually interested. Similarly, the fixation on small details suggests a stronger visual awareness (very typical of many deaf people, myself included).

Can she see you as you sound out or are you looking at the book? Does your hair screen your face from her as you read, sound out, etc? Does seeing you and looking at your lips make a difference with success, particularly with initial letters in words such as wall and mall - again it seems to me she may be picking up the vowels more than the rest here?

Best wishes to you and DD. I hope you get some answers.

No they are correct - please don't jump to conclusions about intelligence.

Consider getting her assessed for DLD. It's a communication disorder that is far more common than autism for example but a lot less well known. 2 to 3 kids in every class have it.

It's referred to sometimes as aural dyslexia. It's a learning difficulty but not disability. It doesn't affect intelligence but does affect ability to process information and that includes problem solving.

Sorry you are worried, she sounds like a lovely happy child with great parents so please try to focus on that if you can. I work in a related area and would suggest asking for a speech and language referral as it does sound like she has some communication difficulties both receptive and expresssive and also an educational psychologist to identify her areas of strengths and difficulties in her cognitive profile. An assessment for dyspraxia would also be helpful but not sure who could refer you for that and to who, OT maybe? Good luck and hopefully she will get the bit of extra support she needs soon.
oh and I don’t think not following films and chapter books is unusual at this age - by 7 year old old just starting too although it probably is his weakest area.

Has she ever had speech and language support before?

at 5 they should be able to read (at least basic sentences) and write - writing their name is even earlier, circa 3-4. I certainly think there is something going on here but as a PP said it’s not necessarily a reflection on her intelligence and she sounds a very happy and social little girl, and you sound like a wonderful mother.

As I was reading your post the first thing that jumped out at me was hearing. I have 3 children with hearing loss, one of whom (the one with the worst hearing) had speech delay. She struggled to blend words and understand how to put words together. We'd spend ages saying s-u-n over and over, slowly and carefully, we'd think she'd be able to blend it on the final attempt and would say cow or some such. She also struggled to hear the TV and would stand in front of it when watching. No one could understand her when she started nursery age 3 and by age 4 it wasn't much better. I struggled to understand her until she was nearly 5, although my husband did better. She is now 7 and has hearing aids and is thriving. What you describe sounds more complex though. Ask the GP for a hearing test and speech and language assessment. Also ask school what support they can access. The health visitor should still be able to help at age 5 I think.

Conversely, my 5yo who also has hearing problems has a wide vocabulary that I've not experienced before with any child (and I used to be a Childminder) and can read fluently. Children really do develop at their own speed. You're doing the right things- just keep pushing for support.

Check her hearing and her sight.

I didn't get glasses until I was 10 or 11. I needed them from birth but no one new because I never had a trip to the optician.

I swear there are different types of intelligence. My dad is a few years older than his brothers so when my parents were fairly newly wed one or other would stay with them for a change.

If they asked either one to put the kettle on brother number 1 would but the kettle on and that was it. Brother number 2 would put the kettle on, get out the tea pot, the cups and the milk and bring in a pot of tea.

Brother number 1 was the one that went to uni (very unusual for a working class teenager in the 1960s).

@Booboobunnywoo , this is the right call. There are SO many things this could be, and no one on Mumsnet can possibly know for sure unless they are a trained professional who has met and professionally observed your daughter.

BUT what I wanted to address is to make you feel a bit better about the last part. I think it’s great that you’ve apologized to the teacher for being defensive; please know that my understanding is teachers deal with this (defensiveness) a lot when they’re the first ones to deliver the news that a child may not be meeting milestones, may be delayed, or may need to be observed by the SENco. I think it’s really brave of you to come on here, ask for advice, and then go back to the teacher, apologize, and ask for assistance. We are all human. Almost everyone will be overly defensive at some time or another when it comes to their child; what matters is what you do next, and it sounds like you’re trying to do the right thing for a child you love very much.

Just don’t beat yourself up. You had no previous experience with children, as you say, and you have no friends with children. Only once we know better can we do better, and you’re trying. I wish you very good luck, and hope they can determine what your daughter needs to do her very best.

I agree with those saying get her hearing and sight tested.

I had scarlet fever as a toddler and around age 8 developed hearing loss as a result. My academic progress tailed off for a while at the same time as I was masking at school but everything righted itself once the grommets went in.

It could be a combination of dyslexia, dyspraxia etc. Speak with the school.

Wishing you well. It's so worrying but you sound like a wonderful caring mum and you'll find the support you need.