AIBU to think this became a political issue where children are just pawns?

[EerieSilence]

I read the news regarding Hillary Cass's report and I'm horrified as to how political the debate has become, with nobody looking at the real issue, which is providing treatments to vulnerable children before they're mature enough in the name of progress.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/thousands-of-children-unsure-of-gender-identity-let-down-by-nhs-report-finds

So far, I can only find comments which are very divisive. It's either the feeling that it's an attack of the transgender community or the conservatives celebrating it as their proof that the wokism should be over.

The uncritical support of gender transformations has let many people down, in my opinion and damaged the transgender debate more than any conservative could have done. At the expense of confused minors who became pawns in the big battle of the gender.
And yes, I'm ready to be roasted here. I'm not transgender-phobic and I fully support transformations where they really are valid and the person who's having it done is fully aware of the consequences.

with nobody looking at the real issue, which is providing treatments to vulnerable children before they're mature enough in the name of progress.

The investigation only happened because so many people, women mainly, raised concerns about the impact of providing this type of 'care' to vulnerable children without considering the impact on their development and their lack of maturity in being able to give fully informed consent.

There was only 1 national service for children experiencing gender distress (the Gender Identity Service at the Tavistock Clinic - operating in London and in Leeds).

The Tavistock offered 1 treatment pathway, which was referral for hormone treatment. They didn't offer (or refer on to) autism assessment or treatment for trauma, anxiety, depression etc.

There are many reasons why children end up experiencing gender distress and treatment (or support) and hormone treatment does not address them all, which is why physical transition doesn't work for all adults who access it.

This is what Cass is saying. Some are having tantrums as a result, some are having parties, the NHS will ignore that now. The adults have entered the room and are cleaning up the mess.

OP, if you find the shouting around all this (in all directions) unpleasant, I think you can rest assured knowing that provision is now being determined and developed using the same approach that is used for other aspects of healthcare. This report is, rightly, about the NHS and the healthcare it provides. Nothing more, nothing less.

And those women were shushed and called transphobic.

You're right. But you said 'nobody' was looking at it which is what I was responding to.

I agree that no one took any notice of the women who were raising concerns though.

I voted YABU because there were plenty of people "looking at the real issue". They were called bigots and transphobes and many lost their jobs or reputations while trying to raise the alarm about the dangers to children.

Not just women. Men too. Some of whom were brave whistleblowers from inside the system.

These people were hounded, told they were transphobic bigots, deplatformed, lost friends/jobs/status. That was aided by the people who knew they were right and said nothing.

So this is a huge societal failure, with many layers to it. How did we get to this point, is the question.

or the conservatives celebrating it as their proof that the wokism should be over.

Im not sure what you're looking at, but my feeds are full of people who have been trying to raise awareness of the harm being done to children for years and are now immensely relieved that it is being taken seriously.

I think there's also a third category... relief some evidence based healthcare is possibly returning for the children it's harming

Even my non trans family members who aren't amongst the rainbow (I am, just don't like the "community" being turned into what it's become) tell me I'm transphobic and can't judge people these days... no I can, I can and will judge stupid and seems fucking mental to not record someone's biological makeup and work off that for healthcare yadda yadda

They're guardian readers. But they were really intelligent thinkers pre this pandemic of feelings before facts and individual truths

They're guardian readers. But they were really intelligent thinkers pre this pandemic of feelings before facts and individual truths

I find it very hard to understand what happened to people like this. I know many of them. How did they end up parking their brains on this issue?

Like in many other divisive issues, being in the rational centre is the most difficult position. Should all children with gender dysphoria be given medication to support their choice - absolutely not. Should some of them be given this treatment - absolutely yes. How do we determine which is which? No idea.
I know, love and work with many transgender people. My close friend went through being a drug addict, acute MH patient and narrowly avoided prison due to struggling with gender identity. Transitioning was a rebirth for him and he could have avoided three decades of suffering had he been offered this opportunity earlier. We hear a lot of these stories. What we don’t hear are the stories of people who struggled with gender identity, were denied treatment and are now grateful for it being the case.
My guess is, psychological support for people with gender dysphoria is seen as being equal to church camps for gay people. It can feel invalidating for the person and trans-positive society. If only things were quite so black and white.
Ultimately, we have NICE guidelines to protect us in the clinical community if not completely absolve us of the moral anguish.

"I fully support transformations where they really are valid and the person who's having it done is fully aware of the consequences."

And who decides when transitioning is "fully valid"? TRAs want affirmation without question and no debate. They want to make counselling illegal and label it "conversion therapy". They tell children they are born in the wrong body. They threaten parents and weaponise suicide by saying "better a trans child than a dead child". The ideology preys on children who are autistic or neurodiverse, telling them that all their problems will go away if they transition. And anyone who questions any of this is a bigot or a transphobe.

And that's not even addressing the question of things like women's prisons. How can we tell which male murderer or rapist has "validly" transitioned to being a woman?!

"Fully aware of the consequences"? That's the whole point of the Cass review. No one knows the consequences. There are no long term studies into the effects of puberty blockers although we do know they cause osteoporosis and lower IQ but until very recently the NHS was still saying they were "safe". Have you seen the photos of women's arms who have had tissue taken off to make into a fake penis? Or the awful side effects of TW who have fake vaginas that need to be physically forced open daily so they don't close and that smell of the intestines they are made from? These are still experimental surgeries and go wrong a lot of the time. There can be no informed consent when the consequences are still unknown.

@TheKeatingFive I think it's that thing where if other politics they've always been in (left, green etc) is saying it and right is saying opposite they just freeze- unsure but I've sent them links from Blaire White, Alexis Blake and The Offensive Tranny before (all transfolk themselves!) and I just get told I'm being transphobic 🤷‍♀️

For sending viewpoints by actual transpeople to consider 😳 bc they're "right wing" 🤔🤔

My guess is, psychological support for people with gender dysphoria is seen as being equal to church camps for gay people. It can feel invalidating for the person and trans-positive society.

It's psychological support denied to others struggling with their sense of self? To people with anorexia? To people struggling to come to terms with their sexuality? To physically different people struggling to come to terms with their body image? Why should gender-diverse people have a lower standard of care than others?

I take exception, though, at your 'trans-positive society'. As yet the evidence is strengthening that unquestionable embracing of trans identities is harmful to society - particularly to women.

A positive attitude to gender non-conforming is a different matter entirely. Acceptance of men widening the norms of being a man - names, clothes, behaviour, stereotypes - while remaining a man, for example. No coercion, no forced speech or intrusion into women's spaces. That would be a positive move.

@EerieSilence There have been a lot of very sensible voices from the whistleblowers at GIDS to some MPs from all political persuasions.

A lot of moderate GC people, who are not transphobic, have been pointing this out for years. This includes a lot of parents who were extremely concerned from a safeguarding perspective.

Unfortunately Stonewall, Mermaids et al led the view that anyone who questioned what was happening was transphobic and so there must be no debate.

There are extremes and moderates on both sides of the argument. Sadly those who care about children and women had their voices drowned out.

Isn't much of the 'real issue' that proper holistic treatment takes time and money? Part of it is about the bigger problem of the shortfall in CAMHS.

We should be shocked by the attempts to bully people out of jobs in the field of medicine, based on completely unevidenced ideology.

Now we have this report, we need a wider CASS report on how that same ideology still has a strangehold on the wider public services and branches of government and the civil service.

There are extremes and moderates on both sides of the argument. Sadly those who care about children and women had their voices drowned out

Im interested to hear more about these extreme ‘sides’ we hear so much about. The side that generated wholesale fear of losing jobs, reputation and peers, who labeled parents bigots for asking questions and continued to push gender ideology blindly over medical safety and evidence. Yes.

What was the other extreme side then?

I believe I made it abundantly clear that there are a lot of unanswered questions and that medical treatment is not the one and only option for every individual. I guess your comment is case in point. Maintaining a rational position which allows for both options to be valid is a difficult thing because it is attacked by proponents of both opposing camps.
Using both "positive attitude" and "intrusion" in the same sentence though is quite an oxymoron.

Absolutely this

The big big issue is the dire state of mental health treatment in both CAMHS and adult services across the board, the lack of autism support or an adequate diagnosis system and the cliff edge between CAMHs and adult services that young people are just left to fall off.

But still it is barely getting a mention. Would love to know how any CASS recommendations are going to be put into place given the dire state of mental health services.Of course the Tories would rather focus on crying “ we know what a woman is” than face the horrific way they have let all children and young people struggling with mental health down.

I kind of resent the implication that the belief that children shouldn't have puberty blockers is an extreme position and I think it really shows how successful activists in this area have been. There doesn't seem to be any reliable evidence that this is in any way a properly evidenced treatment but there is evidence that it does damage. Personally, I think they should be banned for children claiming transgender identities - they are a physical solution to a mental problem and the children presenting in this way have so many confounding comorbidities that I just don't see how it will ever be possible to reliably prescribe this to those who some are saying are the right children.

If TW would stop invading women's spaces and some of the trans community and some allies would stop pushing medical interventions, we could get on with actually making a trans positive society. One in which trans people don't pretend they've changed sex and people don't try and say that some clothing can only be worn by women. Entrenching stereotypes and living about biology is not trans positiven and is most definitely anti woman.

So what are you suggesting as an alternative for suicidal children and young people in broken CAMHS and adult services?

That they should just be left to die?

I don’t think PBs should be just handed out willy nilly either but where is the real debate and exploration re what treatment and support she be given as an alternative when there is nothing? Where is the anger about that?

And here we go again. No thought of struggling young people at all,just women’s spaces. Come on let’s be honest there is very little actual concern about the struggling young people at the heart of these discussions it’s just about women’s spaces.

I don’t think PBs should be just handed out willy nilly either but where is the real debate and exploration re what treatment and support she be given as an alternative when there is nothing? Where is the anger about that?

Talk to any SEND parent. The anger is colossal. Children’s needs, most often those with many comorbidities including questioning gender, are largely ignored.

The difference with specifically addressing gender identity and nothing else that might be going on, is that affirmation is pushed relentlessly and without question. Celebrated by many in wider society and the media as progressive.

The two things are inextricably linked by the assertion that human beings can change sex.

They cannot.

Any discussion centred on the rights and welfare of children and women has to start from that reality - humans cannot change sex