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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think this became a political issue where children are just pawns?

116 replies

EerieSilence · 11/04/2024 08:03

I read the news regarding Hillary Cass's report and I'm horrified as to how political the debate has become, with nobody looking at the real issue, which is providing treatments to vulnerable children before they're mature enough in the name of progress.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/thousands-of-children-unsure-of-gender-identity-let-down-by-nhs-report-finds

So far, I can only find comments which are very divisive. It's either the feeling that it's an attack of the transgender community or the conservatives celebrating it as their proof that the wokism should be over.

The uncritical support of gender transformations has let many people down, in my opinion and damaged the transgender debate more than any conservative could have done. At the expense of confused minors who became pawns in the big battle of the gender.
And yes, I'm ready to be roasted here. I'm not transgender-phobic and I fully support transformations where they really are valid and the person who's having it done is fully aware of the consequences.

Thousands of children unsure of gender identity ‘let down by NHS’, report finds

Leading consultant paediatrician says unproven treatments and ‘toxicity’ of trans debate damaging outcomes

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/10/thousands-of-children-unsure-of-gender-identity-let-down-by-nhs-report-finds

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/04/2024 15:33

literalviolence · 11/04/2024 14:46

I'll add as well that we need tot talk about gender ideology because it harms not just children but also women. To say we can't talk about an ideology which has dismantled women's single sex rape support spaces, for example, because we should only talk about children's mental health provision, is not reasonable. A root cause of a lot of current harm is gender ideology.

I think the two things are inextricably linked, to be honest.

In the last decade we have seen a meteoric rise in the number of children, mainly adolescent girls, identifying as trans, at the same time as a concerted effort to force people to agree that adult trans women are women in all circumstances and belong in all women's spaces. Note that the former group is young, vulnerable and predominantly born female, whereas the latter group consists of mature adults, predominantly born male.

Why did society never stop to ask itself why so many teenage girls don't want to be women? The explosion in numbers has been reminiscent of previous trends of eating disorders and self harm in teenage girls, but this is the first time that this cohort has specifically tried to opt out of womanhood in large numbers. Why? Could it be because, from where they're standing, womanhood looks fucking terrifying? They're the first generation who have grown up with the internet, social media, seeing online porn at a very young age. They've seen women being objectified, slut shamed, victims of revenge porn, assaulted and raped, and that's without even discussing things like menstruation, pregnancy, abortions, childbirth, motherhood, menopause and all the discrimination that comes along with it.

I don't think it's remotely surprising that they've latched on to a rainbow flag waving movement which tells them becoming an adult woman is optional, that they can become a man instead, or just non-binary if they don't want to fully commit.

If you see women as people who are mistreated and disrespected, whose boundaries and autonomy are constantly disregarded, why would you want to become one?

Instead of telling these girls that womanhood is not actually optional, and then trying to figure out how to make the world a better place for women, society has encouraged them in these beliefs.

But why?

To me, the answer is obvious. If you accept that vulnerable teenagers can identify as the opposite sex, or neither sex, if you agree that a teenage girl can grow up to become a man like Elliot Page, you can't then logically say that a trans woman is not a woman because of their biological sex.

These young, vulnerable people attract much more sympathy than people like Isla Bryson or Roxanne Tickle or Laurel Hubbard or India Willoughby or even Eddie Izzard. If you want to break down society's belief that sex is real and binary and important, "trans kids" are much more likely to garner sympathy from the average person and open their mind to the idea that perhaps it is all about how people identify.

And yet, the day after the publication of the Cass review, which is essentially the story of how a generation of mainly teenage girls have been let down, who is getting most of the attention in the media? Who is being interviewed? Mainly adult trans women. The kind of people who, we are told, have been using women's toilets for decades without any issues.

Maybe that's true and maybe it isn't, but housing violent male offenders in women's prisons, denying female rape survivors single sex groups and suing women for having the audacity to create one app which isn't for male users... this is all new. That's no longer about using the toilet, it's about the belief that female people should not be allowed to have anything for themselves. Not a rape crisis group, not an app, not even a word for themselves.

And I don't think this movement would have been anywhere near as successful as it has been in dismantling women's boundaries in this way without the myth of the sad trans child who will commit suicide if they are not affirmed.

DetOliviaBenson · 11/04/2024 15:38

or the conservatives celebrating it as their proof that the wokism should be over.

Is it only conservatives "celebrating"? Because I know a lot of left wing people, myself included that are "celebrating".

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/04/2024 15:40

Emotionalsupportsnail · 11/04/2024 15:29

I learned in my undergraduate degree in the 90s that actually it’s not that clear cut. It’s generally true but the human body is incredibly complex.

Chromosomes are the most binary aspect but even genitalia can be more masculine and more feminine. We all start out with same bits in the womb. Generally speaking genitalia are fairly clearly one or the other but it’s not completely binary. Sex hormones certainly aren’t binary.

Historically we have always had people that don’t fully fit the traditional binary structure - Tom boys, effeminate men - but mostly society has created a situation where people try to fit into the binary system.

I like that there is more freedom of self expression. But like I say, I don’t like a lot of what has come with that and the aggression with which that’s been pursued. I’m really not happy about women only spaces being compromised and the issues in women only sports.

You seem to be conflating sex and gender here.

As others have already pointed out, people with disorders of sexual development are rare, and, in any case, still either male or female. How we start out in the womb is pretty irrelevant by the time we're walking around outside using public toilets.

"Tom boys" are female and "effeminate men" are male. You're talking about gender stereotypes here.

When do we ever need to organise society around gender stereotypes?

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 11/04/2024 15:58

Nobody campaigns for it. Families with children and young people who need MH provision are too busy surviving and keeping their children alive. The rest of you just want to spend hours debating what is a woman and women’s spaces which completely drowns out anything else.

///

I imagine there are even less people in the "trans positive " community campaigning for much that doesn't lead to towards a medicalised path.

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 11/04/2024 16:01

No one is born in the wrong body.

Humans cannot change sex.

This has to be the starting point in getting a better outcome for young people. Otherwise everything that happens next is to support a fiction

Underthinker · 11/04/2024 16:20

@Emotionalsupportsnail
Your teachers were obviously correct in saying that human biology was complex. But if they told you sex isn't binary they were wrong. Of course hormone levels and genital shapes and sizes vary. Almost all human physical traits have some variations. But a man with a small penis isn't partly female, and a woman with above average testosterone isn't a little bit male.

ChateauMargaux · 11/04/2024 17:24

I hope that the outcome of the CASS report is that families who approach the NHS with children in significant gender distress are met with compassion and holistic care.

First, do no harm. In order to understand the harm done by medical interventions, we need good quality evidence and ethical structures. In order for the review structures to be as free from bias as possible, they have to represent a range of opinions and be free to express their opinions.

This review has concluded that the GIDS did not use good quality evidence and that the care it delivered did not look at all aspects of indiviuduals cases. The failure to provide long term follow up of cases, or data collection, is at best negligent, at worst wilfully harmful.

Adolescence is a necessary time of exploration of self. The harms and risks associated with long term cross sex hormone treatement are significant.

All deviation from approved medical processes should fit within a review process. The off label use of puberty blockers for gender disphoria was significantly influenced by patient and lobby group pressure. Our medical establishment should be robust enough to withstand this pressure and base decisions on evidence.

literalviolence · 11/04/2024 17:40

Emotionalsupportsnail · 11/04/2024 15:29

I learned in my undergraduate degree in the 90s that actually it’s not that clear cut. It’s generally true but the human body is incredibly complex.

Chromosomes are the most binary aspect but even genitalia can be more masculine and more feminine. We all start out with same bits in the womb. Generally speaking genitalia are fairly clearly one or the other but it’s not completely binary. Sex hormones certainly aren’t binary.

Historically we have always had people that don’t fully fit the traditional binary structure - Tom boys, effeminate men - but mostly society has created a situation where people try to fit into the binary system.

I like that there is more freedom of self expression. But like I say, I don’t like a lot of what has come with that and the aggression with which that’s been pursued. I’m really not happy about women only spaces being compromised and the issues in women only sports.

You've totally muddled sex and gender here. Some clitorises are bigger. At least the bit we see. But women have clitorises not men and you're not less of a man biologically if your dick is smaller. Tom boy is nothing to do with sex. That's about gender stereotypes. Sexnis binary. Expression of gender stereotypes can be done in a gazillion ways. I don't agree that people try and fit into a binary in terms of expression of gender stereotypes. That's not been true for a very long time. If it even ever was.

Alfreddoeblin · 11/04/2024 18:11

I agree that it’s good that the Cass report is now going to be shedding light on all this but there’s one thing I’m curious about. I’ve read so many posts on SM by young trans adults feeling tremendous psychological relief when prescribed oestrogen or testosterone. They talk about feeling ‘normal’ and right in their own bodies. Who knows whether this is a genuine effect of those hormones or placebo. I do know that many are getting these meds off the internet because they aren’t receiving the appropriate treatment from the NHS. My fear is that this will explode even more if they are denied care until they are 25. This however is very different to giving youngish children puberty blockers.

Fanofbrianbilston · 11/04/2024 18:29

St0rmyDay555 · 11/04/2024 09:37

And here we go again. No thought of struggling young people at all,just women’s spaces. Come on let’s be honest there is very little actual concern about the struggling young people at the heart of these discussions it’s just about women’s spaces.

They don’t give a damn; about the children they're pretending to be so concerned about, about women in prison; about domestic violence and murder of women. If they did they would be using all their resources to get the tories out and pressure billionaires to pay their taxes to spend on public services so we can all have safer spaces.

Chersfrozenface · 11/04/2024 18:36

@Fanofbrianbilston can you explain how pressuring billionaires to pay their taxes to spend on public services would ensure that we can all have safer spaces?

Exactly what do you mean by "safer spaces'?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/04/2024 20:10

Fanofbrianbilston · 11/04/2024 18:29

They don’t give a damn; about the children they're pretending to be so concerned about, about women in prison; about domestic violence and murder of women. If they did they would be using all their resources to get the tories out and pressure billionaires to pay their taxes to spend on public services so we can all have safer spaces.

Women on Mumsnet are only pretending to be concerned about children is a pretty bold claim.

Underthinker · 11/04/2024 20:11

@Fanofbrianbilston also can you explain why so many people (mostly women) are attending meetings, donating to crowdfunders, organisng protests, writing to MPs, and learning more than they ever thought they'd need to know about the endocrine system, prison policy, law, the equality act, feminism, genetics, philosophy, parliamentary procedures, sports science and the judicial review process?

Seems a lot of effort for people who don't care.

Boombatty · 11/04/2024 20:27

Alfreddoeblin · 11/04/2024 18:11

I agree that it’s good that the Cass report is now going to be shedding light on all this but there’s one thing I’m curious about. I’ve read so many posts on SM by young trans adults feeling tremendous psychological relief when prescribed oestrogen or testosterone. They talk about feeling ‘normal’ and right in their own bodies. Who knows whether this is a genuine effect of those hormones or placebo. I do know that many are getting these meds off the internet because they aren’t receiving the appropriate treatment from the NHS. My fear is that this will explode even more if they are denied care until they are 25. This however is very different to giving youngish children puberty blockers.

People who self harm get tremendous psychological relief from cutting themselves. Anorexics get tremendous psychological relief from starving themselves. Should we also encourage this behaviour?

PaperBauble · 11/04/2024 22:02

Chromosomes are the most binary aspect but even genitalia can be more masculine and more feminine. We all start out with same bits in the womb

Let’s be accurate. Sex is determined at conception. It cannot be changed from that point. Hormones trigger the process of sexual development of the foetus in utero. By then, the development pathway (male or female) is already determined.

Sex is not complicated. In fact it’s one of the most simple, efficient and effective biological bits of human development. It has remained consistent for thousands of years and across all cultures, countries, belief systems and has ensured the continuity of our species.

Gender is social and so can mean anything you want it to be of course.

TempestTost · 11/04/2024 23:02

The ideology of gender has produced a situation where children are being given completely inappropriate care, with no evidence base, and also a situation which is creating iatrogenic harms when these kids access mental health services.

Fucking right we should be talking about that if we care about kids mental health.

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