To ask the amount of effort needed to get into the medical profession

[JustRoseDreamer]

Yr 11 dd wants to but is not sure if it is worth it. She is also not sure what exactly she needs to do to get in.

It’s tough.
you need good gcse results-8/9; A levels in Maths, chemistry and biology-probably A, A, A at least
work experience/experience in caring eg at nursing homes etc
hard work at uni, harder once qualified
long hours, lots of responsibilities, more exams. Pay not that great at first for the hours. Work/life balance tricky; especially for women unfortunately if they have children and maternity leave etc. this only really starts to improve once you’re a few years in to being a Consultant.

But agree-if she cba to look this simple stuff up by year 11 then it isn’t the life for her. My DS in year 8 before picking his GCSE’s was considering what subjects would be best for his future.

It's a huge undertaking and you have to REALLY REALLY want it.
My DD1 is a doctor, now a GP.
She knew that's what she wanted from the age of 4 ( very single minded child!)
Stellar GCSES needed, then careful choice of A levels... chemistry, biology maths.. (she also did psychology for some light relief) ..although they dont ALL have to be sciences, you do need a couple to be.

Voluntary experience.. help at a nursing home, etc, do some care work... just show committment to actually caring for people. And a blinder of a personal statement for uni... (getting a place is very competitive )

DD1 found the A levels harder than med school a lot of the time..she enjoyed med school, but the pressure is relentless, and lots give up. 5 years of med school, two years of Foundation (sort of being like an NQT) and they are thrown in it. Incredibly long hours, constant exams for which they pay ££££ and also they have to pay for insurance, memberships, etc etc

So 7 years just to be truly qualified, and then either choose a speciality or locum while you decide (that's what DD1 did) Then years more training for your speciality (3 for a GP)

Oh and you often have to move around, as a student DD was moved around the south west 4 times and she was lucky (can't drive for various reasons which made it even harder)

The pay is CRAP for the hours until you have worked for years. Social life destroyed cos the only people who understand are other medics . Burn out (and suicide rates) are high, although I think there is more support and acknowledgement of that now.

BUT after all that, if it's the only thing she's ever wanted... she should do it. My DD1 LOVES her job.. it's not a job though it's her life and passion. Her medic friends are an incredible bunch of intelligent, kind, passionate people, and she could never have not been a doctor.

But your DD needs to research for herself, if she really wants it. There are many other better paying jobs without the stress and responsibility of a doctor :)

My dd also Y11 wants to do medicine. As mentioned by another poster, we went to a Medic Mentor conference. She's in the process of arranging some work shadowing. Relevant A-Levels have been opted for and she's on course for excellent GCSEs.

The point is that she's doing all of this. Not me.

I'd suggest that you support your dd to do her own legwork. Regardless of her career choices.

I'm a doctor. I also would suggest that if she needs her mum to do the research for the basic google-able questions about the career path then it probably isn't for her!
You need to be very motivated and self-directed to succeed. As well as academic, empathetic and resilient.
I would suggest she arranges work experience in a hospital or joins a mentoring programme to be able to ask doctors all about their experiences, if she is serious.

My dd is currently 2nd year med. I really couldn't give you any insight in what hoops she had to jump through to get in. Reason being, she researched it, and did what needed to be done, herself.

If your daughter is not motivated, or able to do that, I would suggest she looks elsewhere for a profession.

If she's looking for money for jam, then maybe politician?

Thank you for all your insight! dd has done some research herself. She is an A student in maths and science but is slightly below in english. Work experience is hard to find she has been trying to find for months

@JustRoseDreamer Have a look at the long running prospective med student mums thread for advice on work experience.

Med schools are generally sensible about this. If you have had a part time job in McDonald's so experience of both the world of work and dealing with the general public, this is likely to be viewed more favourably than following your uncle the famous surgeon about for an afternoon.

Hospices usually have an established route for volunteers who want to do Medicine. Getting a real job as a health care assistant is also great experience.

What area of medicine is she interested in? Gaining some work experience (paid or voluntary) in something aligned may help bolster her application. E.g. paediatrics- a couple of summers volunteering at a kids holiday camp, tutoring etc will give her something to talk about and develop her communication skills. Work in a care home shows a genuine interest in caring professions as well as giving her something to talk about when it comes to prioritising patient wellbeing. Even volunteering once a week running an activity (music, craft, exercise class etc) at an OAP home can help.

As others have said, stellar grades at GCSE and A levels (in the right subjects for A levels) are a must; medicine is extremely competitive to get into and without these her application will be discarded. It is really important that your daughter researches the profession, access routes and looks at her motivation for pursuing medicine. It's a long slog to get qualified and to move past the really very rotten junior doctor days and most won't get through that if it's not their passion.

It can be an amazing and fulfilling career choice for the right person. Best of luck to your DD!

My year 11 son is also set on the medicine route. When I was looking at fall back options a while a go I came across a physicians associate apprenticeship. May be worth getting her to look into that as an option as well.
I hope she manages to find some work experience, my sons having the same issue. We have 3 care homes in our village and he can't evan get volunteer work at one of them.

It’s a lot of work but worth it if you really want to. You have to sit the UCAT which is really tough (think 14 seconds per question) and then get grades. However, google medic mentors as they offer a lot of help in terms of online seminars to prep etc. Also if she doesn’t get required UCAT etc it is possible to do Biomedical Science and convert. Tell her to speak to the school’s careers person/head of 6th form/UCAS admin.

My daughters are training to be midwives is that something she would be interested in ? Definitely not as intense as medical school but requires a real drive to want to achieve

In my experience, they will take anyone these days.

@hesma the number of people who can convert these days from eg biomedical sciences is extremely small indeed. Much better to take a gap year and apply again if ucat is not in line with levels needed for applications

Right. You just rock up at medical school.

Everyone I went to school with who wanted to be a medic did make it. BUT, they all really really wanted it and were prepared to work incredibly hard for it, especially getting decent work experience together and pre-entry tests. I remember a bunch of them going on some info event days The only person who found the relevant work exp bit easy was a surgeons daughter - he does charitable surgery trips in Africa and she used to go along as it's their own charity- and it did get rubbed in a few faces when other people were desperately trying all angles tbh.

One of my good friends from that time is now a Dr and it took her years. Did work experience with a science/medical angle where possible and did lots of voluntary activities like St John's Ambulance, or community service volunteering with the elderly. Took 4 A Levels, 3 were science/maths and fourth was a language so heavy workload to ensure she got her straight As.

She didn't get in at 18 so did a biomedical sciences degree, didn't get in again so did a gap year where she worked as a HCA in a hospital and made it in on the 3rd go when a uni space opened up for her because someone else dropped out; she got off a waiting list - which meant she didn't need to train abroad which was the next plan. She was diagnosed with a chronic/lifelong illness during her course as well which I think added some time on to the 5 year course.

Post uni it has been easier as she picked a less popular geographical location so she got that and was able to settle down quite early on. She's pretty happy with where she's working and she's now practicing in a field she loves but it was probably a 9-10 year journey to even qualify!

This example is circuitous but it hopefully shows that you really do need dedication and passion to be a medic.

In terms of 'work experience' - my advice as a HCP would be to get a part time job in a relevant area, such as a carer in a residential home, volunteering with St John's Ambulance or in a hospital etc. Observing a work experience doesn't actually tell us anything about a candidate, apart from they got lucky in getting a placement. But turning up every week to volunteer/work shows a level of care and commitment

What area of medicine is she interested in?
Psychiatry maybe but not 100% sure

My DS has 2 friends at med school both started off by doing bio med and then converted.

Not worth it. Nearly 100k debt and no guarantee of a job or training post.

What? It has among the highest graduate employment rates. I know someone who scraped through their degree, getting a Third if Medical degrees were graded in that way (they’re not) and became a junior doctor straight after graduating.

I agree with PP that the standard of student has definitely dropped. When DM went to med school in the 70s the very top students in any school would go into Medicine. When I left school in the 2000s the very top students studied Maths, Physics, Economics, Law and went on to work in Finance, Tech and City Law. I don’t know what the top students in the 2020s are going into, but I doubt it’s Medicine.

it probably isn't a bad thing that it isn't all just 'the top students' getting in these days - being academically super-gifted does not necessarily translate to being a good doctor. You really need to be moderately intelligent, hard-working and pretty socially competent rather than just great at maths and physics (for some reason they were never so much bothered that we did biology!).

Re getting a job after medical school - most people do get into foundation jobs but it does gets very much harder to get jobs in training programmes after that (and that doesn't necessarily mean it's just the idiots that get kicked off the official programmes - there are some really really good doctors who've struggled to get training posts).

All students who study medicine are 'top' (& medical degrees are not graded so no thirds).

They have to have the grades to get in (7s at GCSE are enough and AAA at A level). But they also need the softer skills these days - resilience, patience, empathy, listening skills etc. So some of those purely academic students now won't get in.

But it's no longer guaranteed employment because the government has decided to reduce the number of training places for specialities whilst increasing the number of medical students. Foundation students starting in July found out their jobs yesterday and a large minority have TBA. They are being made to move to new areas many miles away from home if they want to be a doctor. No choice. No other employer.

Your DD really needs to want to do medicine. 11,000 doctors applied to be GPs but there are only 4,000 roles available (because we don't need GPs 🤬). Things may improve but students need to go in with their eyes open as to the realities. It's paid v v badly (£32,000 for F1, but this is for a 48 hour week so equates to £15.33 an hour). There is no guarantee of progression these day. Oh and shifts usually mean you work 60+ hours a week, nights, lates, weird times.

Hope that helps.

And it's still v competitive - 9-14 applicants per place. Hurdles that need to be cleared :

GCSEs (7 7s is enough for most places)
Predicted grades (AAA at least for most places but a few don't look)
UCAT (a v tough test)
Interviews (need to apply strategically depending on the above as each Uni looks at different things to shortlist)
A level results

And then 5-6 years of hard work (& a lot of fun).

9-14 applicants a place when each student can apply to 4-5 universities really isn’t that competitive. You should look up the really competitive courses.

I’m aware medicine degrees aren’t graded the same way as other degrees (and pointed this out in my post), my point is I know someone who just scraped a pass and got a job no problem. Everyone knows who the brightest students are in their A level class or their children’s class and what those students pursue in terms of degree and career. In the 1970s when DM and DAunt were in medical school, the top students in any given school went into medicine. By the time I left school in the 2000s that wasn’t the case.

Agree with PP, you only need to be moderately intelligent but you do need other, softer skills.

@Usernamen and you are entitled to think that. I disagree. Any student who can get AAA at A level is bright. Any student who can get a high enough score on the UCAT is very bright. And any student who can last the rigours of 5 years studying the amount and complexity of a medical degree is bright.

1 in 4 students who apply for medicine will get in. At all. Other degrees will have other options at other Universities that may be less competitive. Medicine is competitive at every Uni. And the application process is brutal - students are still waiting to hear from some Unis this year. And A levels start in a few weeks.

Other degrees require students to be bright too. It's not some kind of weird one up manship.