Accidentally asked DD why she couldn't be more like her friend

[GiViMi]

Where to begin - I feel like I'm living in some teen drama show!!

DD is 17, in sixth form, she previously went to an 3-16 independent school and we had few issues there. It was small, she had 4 close friends. There was an aspect of underage drinking and broken curfews but school work was always done, DD was generally respectful and her friends were lovely people. For sixth form that group seems to have split, 2 have gone boarding, zero contact with them it seems. One has gone to a state sixth form then DD and her closest friend are at 2 different independent schools. DD decided she wanted to try an all girls school, I hated the idea but I felt she was old enough to decide. She is still close with the other girl who did similar.

Lately DD has been a nightmare, she'd turned into a real stereotype if I'm honest (bitchy, mean and judgemental), she has no care for her school work anymore, seems obsessed with boys, mean to other girls you name it. Also had a run in with drugs (which is seemingly rampant among these girls!) which I've managed to nip in the bud but it's relentless. She is cruel to her brother and half-sister, talks back to everyone it's truly non-stop.

Tonight it all came to a head, after breaking curfew last night, stealing money out her dads wallet (not together anymore but he passed the message on), returning back to her dads extremely drunk having told us she was with her old friend. It was made clear that until schools are back - she is not leaving the house, no phone access, she can study.

Well DD absolutely lashed out, saying we are cruel and everyone her age is drinking, we never give her enough money and so on. DS decided it would be a good time to mention her new found reputation as a bully too!
I didn't mean to but I inadvertently said, well not everyone, C (old friend from old school) isn't doing it is she! This caused DD to break down and tell me, C doesn't have to, she's pretty and smart and kind to everyone and above all of this and people just respect her naturally, and when she was at school with her she benefited from that respect. Now she's on her own she has two choices act like everyone else or be left out.
I told her at 17, she should focus on being friends with C, keep her head down and keep quiet at school. Before long she will be off to uni, none of these girls will be relevant and hopefully she will be mature enough to realise that part of the reason C is above all this is because she doesn't care about what anyone else thinks, I know for a fact people have tried to drag her into all the drama as DD told me not even a year ago everyone was talking about her because of who she'd lost her virginity to! I asked DD at the time what C was doing and she said nothing, C didn't care and that was that!! It blew over in a few days as no one was getting the satisfaction of a rise out of her!
DD is the opposite, some girl made some mean comments to DD and DD couldn't help but retaliate, the concept of "rise above it"
Is alien to DD!!
But in a genuine sense DD after going shopping or for lunch with C is a lovely girl it's when she's been around these school friends!
Now DD is distraught saying I clearly don't love her and I wish she was C and I should just send her to live with her dad all the time (we have a united front he'd say the same!).

AIBU to think that this is all a bit melodramatic and immature for 17, but to equally have no idea what to do? If it was a little underage drinking and broken curfews I could handle it, but rudeness, no effort at school, drugs, bullying and seemingly feeling a need to sleep around (and be public about it) is absolutely beyond me! I do wish she was a little more like the girl she used to be, I
Shouldn't have said I wish she was more like C but in a way it's true! I don't mean in personality but in behaviour I do!

How do I handle this?

I didn't mean to but I inadvertently said, well not everyone, C (old friend from old school) isn't doing it is she!

You betrayed her. She's your baby, she was kicking off. You told her you preferred someone else.

Tell her nothing changes the fact that she's yours and you love her, but she needs to rein in the behaviour.

If you like reading books about parenting I really recommend Untangled by Lisa Damour about teenage girls - I found it balanced and helpful.

Assuming, she has another week of the holidays, I think that saying she can't leave the house or have access to her phone for a whole week is quite a harsh punishment for what she did last night? I think reacting too strictly can make things worse in this kind of situation.

The fact you are posting on here suggests you are a really caring mother. It sounds like your DD’s behaviour has really changed to fit into a new environment. Could you talk to pastoral team at her school in confidence about it? A positive role model and a bit of help to feel comfortable in this new environment might go a long way to help her not feel the need for the more damaging behaviour. Where I work we have pastoral mentors for example. If that doesn’t have any effect, either university is ‘only’ just over a year away (can feel a long time fur a 17 yo though!) or worst case change settings.

I found ‘Untangled’ by Lisa Damor (sp?) a useful read.

Cross post re. Book. 😊

I don’t think you said anything too awful - although it would be upsetting to your DD. You said that not everyone was doing the things your DD ‘had’ to do. That’s correct. You saying the C doesn’t do them isn’t saying you wish C was your daughter - although that’s how your DD interpreted it.

Go back and have another talk to your DD. Explain what you meant and frame it in a better, more positive way - that your DD has choices, that this isn’t her, that you definitely don’t want C as your daughter, you were just using her to prove that doing idiot things wasn’t necessary, and you chose her because you think your DD and C are similar.

I also think you need to have a serious general chat with her about peer pressure and manipulation. When I was at school, a few girls did this and some joined in - but the truth was the ringleaders weren’t actually sleeping around, taking drugs, etc, they just got a kick out of pretending they were and seeing girls desperate to be cool copying them. Your DD is probably seen as one of those easily manipulated girls.

Girls like C aren’t respected because they’re pretty and popular so don’t have to do these things - it’s the other way round. They’re respected for having the strength not to join in and to carve their own path. How ‘pretty’ they are is irrelevant. It’s the self-confidence that’s respected.

If the problem really is entrenched, I’d definitely consider moving schools.

'This caused DD to break down and tell me, C doesn't have to, she's pretty and smart and kind to everyone and above all of this and people just respect her naturally, and when she was at school with her she benefited from that respect. Now she's on her own she has two choices act like everyone else or be left out.'

This was your daughter crying out for help.

She spent a large chunk of her adolescence in lockdown and is, like everyone else, trrying to find her place.

Are there any courses or guidance on how to parent girls this age? I think you'd benefit from learning and understanding more about the incredibly difficult world teens inhabit.

Punishing her isn't the answer - although she's nearly legally an adult, neurologically she's in late adolescence. It's likely it will all calm down in a few years, your job is to learn and improve yourself so you can guide and support her.

Middle of the night and she's wailing about how you don't love her and you wish she was somebody else?

She's drunk as a skunk.

She'll be back to normal in the morning.

Get the bullying sorted. There’s no excuse for it. Whoever she’s bullying could be scarred for life (I know!!).

OP, I’m so sorry, your DD sounds objectively awful. I’d be very disappointed and disgusted with her behaviour too.

I hope you can explain to DD that you love her (not C), but her behaviour is unacceptable and you want her to make better life choices (like C).

Your DD sounds quite weak willed and a definite follower, not a leader. It’s not always possible for people to innately change who they are. The best you could do is surround her with a better group of peers.

What school is C at?

I think she needs some time just you and her. It sounds like there's some deep reasons she's behaving like this.

I have teenagers and there's been plenty of times they've been dickheads for periods of time and it's been really stressful. I don't think you should overthink what you said about being like her friend. Don't let your dd weaponise that, as it's skirting the issue. Her friend C avoids trouble and drama and gets on with her work maturely. That's all you meant. You didn't say that you would rather have C as a daughter, because you wouldn't. You just want your lovely daughter to stop acting like a twat, stop being mean and volatile, and to calm the fuck down and stop being so impulsive and dramatic, as she has bloody exams coming up.

I love getting away with one of my kids at a time now they're this age, and I think it's so bonding and healing.
A road trip for a weekend maybe . Stay in youth hostels for a couple of nights and go out for food. Car journeys are when my kids talk to me the most.
Try and have a look online about therapeutic conversations with teens, and having unconditional positive regard. Try and look at your dynamic

How is your DD about to sleep around so much? Are you allowing this? I wouldn’t dream of allowing my high school daughter to become a so promiscuous.

It boggles my mind how badly teenage girls can damage their self esteem and reputation, by sleeping around. It follows them and a teenage pregnancy can trash their life plans.

I think you actually need to be much stricter, not be apologising for saying nothing wrong.

It really does sound like she’s unhappy and lashing out. Is the school quite pressured all talk of which RG uni and A star grades.
I’d try and speak about restarting yr 12 at another sixth form - mixed, state.
I find my best conversations with yr 13 dd are at midnight or in the car.
It doesn’t sound like she has a pt job i’d push that. Really makes them see there’s more to life than bubble of school and mix with a wider range of people.
What hobbies does she have? Again a hobby or volunteering can help.
Mine had lived a pretty drama free life in terms of friendships but it’s been difficult at sixth form friend groups falling out, ostracising girls etc.

Low self esteem and feeling insecure isn’t an excuse to bully and steal. At 17, she needs to learn that these sort of actions come with consequences. Obviously she needs more support, would she consider counselling? How about a girls day between you two when everything settles down? I don’t think she should be rewarded right now imho but I would try and keep the lines of communication open. However, she said this when drunk, she may not want to talk about it sober.

Have you considered it though? Check the exam boards at her current school. and the one she'd move to. Are they the same? Or mostly the same?

A move at this stage isn't ideal but neither is the current situation

"Poor thing" laughable. She's bullying the time for sympathy is well and truly gone.

No leaving the house outside of school time. I'd be taking her to and from. And no social media, basic phone with a few contacts in it. And I would move her school. A levels are a small part of life, don't keep her in a toxic environment for the sake of some exams. Then when she's in a new place and makes healthy friendships she can have her privileges back

Wow you’ve quite a range of responses. I don’t think you said anything too terrible, but I think you do now need to address how she has taken it. Not tell her she’s wrong etc but acknowledge that’s how she heard it and that would be hard to feel your mum wishes you were different.

I think being 17 and navigating the situations she is, is incredibly hard, and if she had the skills to navigate it well, she would be doing it. She’s told you quite articulately why she’s struggling to behave how you want. I think you need to hold boundaries but reestablish yourself as her support by connecting with how this chat has made her feel, and repairing that in her mind.

Of course you can see how she’s not got long to cope with all this, but for her it’s awful and completely immersive. ‘rising above’ means a whole lot of practical and internal skills, that she needs some more help and experience to develop.

You are also coming up to uni open day season. I found the visits chance for quality time together and have proper conversations. It really hammers home that in a year they could be a a new place with all new people. If they like what they see then they’ll need to work for it.

You are thinking the grass is greener with C but that’s perception of your’s is in your imagination - not even C would know how she would react if put in the same situation as your daughter is in at school. Our now 17 year old daughter was in an all girls for four years - it’s not a great environment for many unfortunately.

School will have a guidance or welfare person. I’d contact them and ask them to speak to her when school is back.
It is positive she’s speaking to you and telling you she’s low self esteem not eating disorder/self harm in secret.
It’s easy to say she’s being a brat but I wouldn’t want to be 17/18 now.

Yanbu, at 17 she's very young yes but old enough to know right from wrong and make better choices. One thing at a time to target maybe? I'd start with the drugs, they will mess her up the most if she dabbles with them. You wound like a really good mum x

You need to prioritise your relationship with her in a positive way, being ready to listen and empathise with her difficulties. She's not happy and is feeling out of control. There's a lot going on here so trying to work out the key issues / possible solutions is going to take a while. Understanding why and avoiding judgement as much as possible is key. Ultimately 'grounding' or other sanctions won't provide a solution. Moving schools is unlikely to help and could make things worse, although if she was keen to try it that might be OK. But chances are it will become another stressor.

Counselling could be very supportive if she would agree to it. It's very hard to maintain objectivity as a parent as you are so emotionally involved.

See if you can spend some quality time together where she will talk more openly and gently suggest some options.

If it helps, my youngest was similar at 17 (didn't bully though), but by 18 things started to improve. One thing I feel may have helped was that she did a vocational course instead of A levels (pandemic put her right off traditional schooling) and that meant work placements, eventually one's that were paid. She then got a fulltime job. Having to mix with adults and make relationships with them really helped her - obviously your dd isn't in that position but a part time job might help? Perhaps a year out working later, before university.

Op has given an honest assessment of her daughters behaviour on an Internet forum. From that you've deduced she's unsympathetic, if that were true she probably wouldn't have bothered posting in the first place.
I went through very similar at the same age, largely for the same reasons. It was generally ignored by my parents, I think they just hoped it would sort itself out, it
did but looking back I think honesty and some tough love would have been more helpful

Do you have a teenage daughter? And how exactly would you not allow it?

I’m intrigued how you could not allow it too 😀