Upset by "I stand with Israel" badge at bus stop

[yiddishmaid]

A woman at the bus stop was wearing a badge stating "I stand with Israel" in large letters, which upset me a bit. And has upset me more as I think about it more. She has been to Israel, and has a lot of affection for the Jewish culture, but is not Jewish herself.

I am finding it hard to explain why I am upset. Maybe I am upset because in a way I felt she didn't have a right to take sides. She doesn't really know anything about it. But that seems unreasonable, because everyone knows about the sickening brutality of Hamas.

Maybe I am upset because I disagree with her, and don't in my heart stand with Israel to the full extent any more. But that seems unreasonable, because people can disagree with me.

Maybe I am upset because I feel she is making somebody else's tragedy her problem, like some sort of cultural appropriation. Being brave and wearing a support Israel badge, when actually her thoughts and opinions on the whole subject are not of any relevance and will have no affect, and could stir up local aggression where it was not necessary.

I don't know. I am upset by her badge and her choice to take the risk of wearing it. I don't really know why.

Do you know what anti-semitsm actually means? If means denying the right to Jews to freely chose their religion and their beliefs.

I'm sick and tired of being branded "anti-semitc" for holding to account the GOVERNMENT in Israel and the atrocities they are committing against a civilian population, specially when they are targeting children in that population.

There are 2 different issues that should never be mixed. One is a religious belief, the other is political. And if you don't want to get it, shame on you.

This is what the poster @YaMuvva said:

"Exactly and it’s is totally and complete anti-Semitic to hold all Jews responsible for the actions of Israel. Nobody blamed all Muslims and asked random Muslims what they think of when Malala was shot in the face for going to school, or about the atrocities happening in Saudi Arabia. so I am at a loss as to why British Jews are being demanded their opinions and to decry the actions of Netanyahu"

And you have responded

"Do you know what anti-semitsm actually means?"
Yes it appears she does. As she has said holding Jews responsible or asking them to answer for in any way the actions of Israel is antisemitic. By every definition of antisemitic that exists.

"If means denying the right to Jews to freely chose their religion and their beliefs"
No, it doesn't. That is what denying someone freedom of religion is. Hitler did not deny the right of Jews to freely be Jews, even as he popped us into gas chambers. There are definitions of antisemitism, and you have clearly neither read not even got a vague understanding of what they are.

"I'm sick and tired of being branded "anti-semitc" for holding to account the GOVERNMENT in Israel and the atrocities they are committing against a civilian population, specially when they are targeting children in that population"
No one has called you antisemitic for that I am betting. Nor has this poster suggested even remotely that criticising the Israeli government is antisemitic. They have said very clearly that British Jews are not responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, and treating them as if they are is antisemitic. Which it is.

"There are 2 different issues that should never be mixed. One is a religious belief, the other is political. And if you don't want to get it, shame on you"
Jewishness is not a religious belief. Something like 40% of Jews are atheists. Jews are an ethnic-religious group, that is why as well as being persecuted for many other reasons, they are also persecuted for perceived characteristics such as "hook noses". That is also why Hitler also murdered the atheist ones and declared us not to be of the "Aryan pure race".

I can see from your post you a few things seems to be true. You claim to be "sick and tired" of being accused of antisemitism which would imply this happens regularly. From your short post we've established you don't really know what a Jew is, certainly don't know what antisemitism is and seemingly can't distinguish the difference between blaming the Israeli government for their actions and blaming a random Jew in Sevenoaks.

A suggestion would be to Google and read the IHRA definition of antisemitism, along with the Jerusalem Declaration. Both explain very easily what antisemitism is in less than an A4 page. You could read them in less time than it took to post this rant and then instead of being "sick of being accused of antisemitism" you might forge an understanding of what it is, and how to avoid such accusations in the future.

Wrong.

the definition of anti-semitism is not, and never has been, stopping Jews being religious.

The definition is Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.

As for the test of your post - are you being obtuse or just goady? I NEVER said you can’t criticise the Israeli government , did I? Why have you written your reply like I did?

This is a tactic used regularly used by pro-Palestinian anti-semites - perhaps to evade debate, I don’t know - pretending they’re being shut down or called anti-Semitic for criticising Israel when literally no one had done that on this thread. Certainly not me. Why have you done that? Why have you claimed you have been called anti-Semitic?

It’s literally like me posting on a thread saying “I like bananas” and someone dying “I’m sick of being called anti-apple”. Absolutely gaslighting bonkers.

Again not sure I you’re being obtuse or just thick but what I said was anti-Semitic is holding all Jews accountable for the actions of Israel. Do you not agree?

Shame on YOU

And bye @Alondra i don’t think you’re anti-Semitic for condemning Israel.

I DO think you’re anti-Semitic for trying to rewrite the meaning of anti-Semitsm. Because when people do that what they’re ACTUALLY doing is drip feeding the notion that anti-semitrailer is not a big deal.

Yep. Anyone blaming ordinary Jewish/Israeli people or Muslim/Palestinian people for the horrors of the IDF and Hamas are idiots.

I have zero control over what Sunak and his ilk do, so why should ordinary Israelis and Palestinians be any more ‘powerful’ and responsible for the actions of their murderous leaders?

Nobody blamed all Muslims and asked random Muslims what they think of when Malala was shot in the face for going to school, or about the atrocities happening in Saudi Arabia

As a Muslim, I can assure you that Muslims received a hell of a lot of abuse after 9/11, 7/7, the London Bridge bombings etc and continue to do so. Nobody noticed and nobody cared and nobody marched against Islamophobia. It definitely happened because members of my extended family who wear headscarves experienced it. But the media and ordinary people ignored it 🤷🏼‍♀️

AMAZING post thank you for this.

Anti-Jewish hate is racism and we must never stop calling it out

You are right, I recall clearly many people behaving like this. And they were motivated by their prejudice against Muslims rather than deep concern for the bombing victims. Hideous behavior. I am sure Muslims experiencing this felt the same horrible way we feel now. Shame on the people who do this.

I mean you’re actually berating Jewish people for not getting anti-semitism properly.

I don't see why you personally should be ashamed of Israel? There's a war on, and it's grim from both sides. I wouldn't pick a side personally. But plenty of people I know go to the pro Palestine marches etc. they wouldn't wear badges about it during their day to day life though.
I got upset once when my colleague's NVQ assessor turned up wearing a UKIP badge. I got scared he would mark the guy down as he was from a non UK background!
I don't even like the baby on board ones. Lol
A girl at my old job wore fucking Golliwog badges, in a majority BAME workplace!?

I mean you’re actually berating Jewish people for not getting anti-semitism properly.

I agree. I am not going to try define Islamophobia to a Muslim person. As a Jewish woman I can define what Anti-Semitism is. Nobody is trying to prevent Jews from practising their religion. We are free to do so. Its just made really really difficult and frightening, when our synagogues are daubed with graffiti, when our kids are called terrorists, when I’m told I support genocide, when I’m scared of being identified as Jewish. I’m an atheist. I don’t support Netanyahu, I don’t support Hamas. I don’t want innocents maimed and killed on a monumental scale. I don’t want Israelis murdered at a festival and in their homes. I don’t want Jewish babies burned so their bodies are found fused together, I don’t want to see swastikas on the streets of the Uk and being told they have to be taken into context. I don’t want someone to give me a crap and innacurate definition of antisemitism when I’m living with it.

I apologise, you are absolutely right of course they did. But we now (and at the time) recognise that to be blatant Islamophobia which I think anti-Israel people would agree with. Yet so many expect all Jews to be accountable for the actions of Israel.

Except that poster is wrong and has completely diluted the meaning of anti-Jewish hate (which has for millennia motivated the exile and persecution of Jewish people) to mean “Not allowed to be Jewish”

I wonder if @Alondra thinks the definition of Islamophobia is “Not allowed to practice Islam”.

And some Jews don't condone genocide. Why tar them all with the same brush?

I agree 100% with this.

I also think there is something iffy about this thread and the OP. Their username sounds like they’ve been watching too much fiddler on the roof or something.

I’m sorry fucking what?
you’ve just implied most Jewish people (please try to use this term not Jews) DO condone genocide then told ME not to tar them all with the same brush.
the irony

You aren't sorry. YOU are the one who said that most people who "stand with Israel" are Jews/Jewish. I pointed out that not all Jews/Jewish people condone the ongoing genocide. Why do YOU want to portray Jewish people as being overwhelmingly supportive of a bloodthirsty Israeli government? What's your agenda?

That’s quite the reach you made there.

Agree. I am ‘lucky’ in that I live in N London so we have all religions in our community including Jewish people and it’s just never been an issue. Our friends and our kids’ friends attend each other’s cultural events and prejudice doesn’t come up.

I think some people have such extreme perceptions of Jewish and Muslim people and are all too ready to stereotype. It’s damn depressing and doesn’t help anyone. It sickens me that for example anyone thought it was ok to tear down posters of Israeli hostages. Disgusting.

No I’m not sorry at all. I wasn’t apologising. But you knew that (BTW acting obtuse doesn’t make you look obtuse it makes you look stupid).

Why do YOU want to portray Jewish people as being overwhelmingly supportive of a bloodthirsty Israeli government? What's your agenda?

Dear fucking god.

Read slowly: Saying “I stand with Israel” =/ “I support genocide”.

Why do you think this is? It’s really not hard to understand that ‘standing with Israel’ largely means standing against anti-Semitic rhetoric every day Israelis experience simply for being from Israel, the assumption they support their Government (most who I know do not as I said above) and the right for Israel/a Jewish state to exist.

YOU are the one tarring all people with the same brush by assuming “I stand with Israel” means they support the actions of the Israeli government.

Do you also think all pro- Palestinians are pro-terrorist? By your logic, you should. Apparently according to you being pro-[insert country] doesn’t mean supporting citizens but supporting their government.

Meanwhile YOU claim only some Jewish people are against genocide. A blatantly racist statement based on anti-Semitic assumptions. Explain yourself please.

A racist reach.

I am upset by all the pro-Palestine signs etc. Not because I support Israel over Palestine or vice versa but because I don't understand how so many intelligent people seem unable to see that both Hamas and the Israeli government are as bad as each other and both are at fault. This is not black and white, good v evil. It's a horribly complex situation.

What a disgusting post.

Calling on, pressuring to, or implying in any sense that Jews needs to disavow or condemn Israel publicly is antisemitic. By definition. And rightly so.

By doing this, you take your beliefs and opinions about Israel (which are quite likely motivated by your own Hostility and prejudice) and tell they are the only acceptable ones to hold.

You say, "hey Jew, those of you who do not take on my political beliefs about an issue love genocide".

It's an utterly disgusting thing to say, and I couldn't care if you are Jewish yourself or not.

Ugh I am so sick of people like you! You probably have your chest all puffed up thinking you just said something clever or witty or even progressive. What you actually just did was racist bullying on a public forum.

You're no better than the Tommy Robinson type deciding "some" Pakistanis are all right as long as they agree with his freaky ideas and the rest are child rapist supporters. Yuck! Why are there so many people like this! Mumsnet should ban them!

@brexile what badge do you wear in public? Just to give me a heads up so I know who to avoid.

@LemonyTicket BRAVA!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Im not reporting the racist posts from @Brexile and @Alondra because I want people to see what racists they are and remember them.