Upset by "I stand with Israel" badge at bus stop

[yiddishmaid]

A woman at the bus stop was wearing a badge stating "I stand with Israel" in large letters, which upset me a bit. And has upset me more as I think about it more. She has been to Israel, and has a lot of affection for the Jewish culture, but is not Jewish herself.

I am finding it hard to explain why I am upset. Maybe I am upset because in a way I felt she didn't have a right to take sides. She doesn't really know anything about it. But that seems unreasonable, because everyone knows about the sickening brutality of Hamas.

Maybe I am upset because I disagree with her, and don't in my heart stand with Israel to the full extent any more. But that seems unreasonable, because people can disagree with me.

Maybe I am upset because I feel she is making somebody else's tragedy her problem, like some sort of cultural appropriation. Being brave and wearing a support Israel badge, when actually her thoughts and opinions on the whole subject are not of any relevance and will have no affect, and could stir up local aggression where it was not necessary.

I don't know. I am upset by her badge and her choice to take the risk of wearing it. I don't really know why.

@changefromhr completely forgetting what Hamas did

Showing support for a terrorist led state that launched an unprovoked murderous attack on their neighbour isn’t my idea of virtuous behaviour. In fact I’m staggered how easily the apologists appear accepting of such atrocities.

I am confused that only one person seems to have noted OP's username. Does that not throw some relevance on her reaction?

WTF? What’s wrong with flying the Ukraine flag? Or do you not oppose genocide, or want to defend democracy against dictatorship? Or the concept of sovereign states with internationally agreed borders.

I wouldn’t be upset to see someone supported either Israel or Palestine but it’s a much more complicated situation- in my view both the Israeli govt and Hamas have committed atrocities and I feel for both the Palestinian people and for ordinary Israelis. Right now, of course, it’s the Palestinian people who are suffering horrific treatment by Israel, which is a war crime and amounts to genocide, but both “sides” gave a right to exist. Both are have connections with minority groups in this country, and it’s important to protect both minorities in the UK from attacks.

Situations couldn’t be more different.

But did you also notice this observation? "Interesting choice of username you’ve gone for there, OP. Particularly as you appear to have selected it specifically for this thread."

So you have the problem then. Why does one bother you and not the other?

From what I’ve read, the attack on Israelis involved more than just Hamas fighters. Israeli border guards noted unusual activity by farmers, for example. Women my age seemed to have no problem with the sexual violence their sons carried out. I would have a much bigger problem standing next to British folks seemingly defending Hamas. I’m bothered by the total hypocrisy of many people. If an attack like that was carried out against British people there wouldn’t be many calls for restraint from mainstream or social media.

Just ignore it - if you’re not prepared to talk to her about it.

Yes the attacks were probably backed by russia in order to destabilise the Middle East and distract from their own war crimes in Ukraine. And it’s worked.

Yes, that was the 'only one' I mentioned. I assume OP name changed for what she knew could be a rather contentious thread.

OP I may be way off base but what you are saying resonates with me in this way:

The world appears to be on fire and because of media proliferation and manipulation everything seems reduced to badge wearing and breast beating. It's not just this appalling conflict, it is every bit of division and horror.

There are a billion issues that are supposed to claim our attention and need addressing, but ultimately most of us are powerless to actually do much. Saying that one stands with a side is futile in most cases. Other people have the money and power, while we are swept along - the pawns in an eternal chess game.

We are told that democratic unity will effect change, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Yet we are continually pushed in one direction to another to another, with less and less societal cohesion.

The received wisdom is that we should, if things "bother us" step away from the omnipresent media and focus on what is in our control yet (from personal experience) that is precious little, because geo politics is affecting every aspect of our lives - economics, housing, environment etc - especially if you're at the low end of the economic scale.

Personally it's all exhausting - we are told to check our privilege - we're not dying in a war, we're living in Utopia in comparison , so we feel guilt and shame and anger and turn it inwards until it surfaces and comes out, because our own circumstances can be challenging in their own way.

I don't know what the end game is going to be or is supposed to be, I just know that when the world is full of people judging each other and killing each other for what seems like insane reasons considering we're supposed to be educated and "enlightened" it's not surprising we struggle to make sense of it.

I sell antiques online, and a buyer in Israel wrote to plead with me to let them buy something I had listed, because other sellers had refused to sell to an Israeli. I cannot afford to adopt the vexations of others. Reader, I sold it to her.

Agreed. Virtue-signalling on a flagpole. Did you know the UK government sent a Ukraine flag to every council in the country, with instructions to display it on the official flagpole of the town/city? True fact. What's that all about?

So how did that conversation go?
How much do you know about Israel?
I went on holiday once.
That it?

That’s a very persuasive view - I agree.

I suspect the hand of Putin is behind most developments that are difficult for the West- Brexit vote outcome, election of Trump, trouble in the Middle East. The recent suspicions about the attacks on certain Western diplomats with sonic noise are also probably true.

Basically we need to wake up to the fact that we are back in the Cold War.

I’m not saying that it’s acceptable to see children as collateral damage - I hope that Israeli military action is rethought now. But I have little sympathy for an adult population that voted in a terrorist group as its government and participated in or celebrated atrocities . The first steps to ending this are (1) immediate release of the hostages, and (2) an acceptance by both sides that the other has the right to exist.

Yes, it was the name change bit specifically I noticed. Struck me as dubious.

No. A legal march is a multitude of people expressing their political views, with many layers of government involved - from council to police.

An individual person wearing a large conflicting badge, is publicly making a statement. She could keep her voice quiet to friends and family but chooses not to. As such, she is inviting other individuals to disagree with her publicly.

I think people really need to stop with the ‘poor defenceless Palestinians’ rhetoric now. October 7th was not decided that morning, it required long term planning and infrastructure, the people who kidnapped hostages, the tunnels underneath hospitals etc did not pop out from nowhere.

My comment refers to the actions of Hamas/Palestine not Israel.

OT ( and no offence to you katemax) but I hope people can see that even pro-Israel posters spell Israel incorrectly. Because it is a difficult word to spell. I am tired of posters elsewhere being berated as antisemitic because they make this common spelling error.

Also anti-Semitic attacked on Jewish people has risen by over 300% since October 7th. People are using the conflict to justify airing their anti-Semitic views and I’m seriously ashamed of those people. This includes displaying swastikas as Pro-Palestinian marches (something the Met police say is not anti-Semitic) and comparing the conflict to the Holocaust (which the Holocaust Memorial Trust set out very clearly falls under the anti-semitism umbrella, their definitions are adopted the world over).

Do you have any idea how terrifying it is to be a British Jew right now? People calling for the ONE Jewish state to be ethnically cleansed of Jews - not even a century after the biggest genocide against Jewish people and now a terrifying amount of people are calling for the exile of Jewish people yet again.

So have you thought that maybe British Jews feel safe seeing someone with an I Stand with Israel badge in a country where racist hate crimes against them are extremely likely? Because right now many take a gamble by just walking the street

You are allowed to not agree with her opinion, but she is allowed to have an opinion.

Yes sorry I was referring to the person before you who described Palestine as defenceless.

Defenceless yet holding and attacking over 100 hostages including babies, hmmmm

I however would not be upset over a pro Palestine badge on another person because I’m not arrogant enough to think everyone should agree with me.

I think people really need to stop with the ‘poor defenceless Palestinians’ rhetoric now. October 7th was not decided that morning, it required long term planning and infrastructure, the people who kidnapped hostages, the tunnels underneath hospitals etc did not pop out from nowhere.

Obviously there's a horrific loss of life but the things the media isn't that hot on reporting is that a poll conducted in 2023 shows that 72% of Palestinians believe the Oct 7 attack was the right thing to do (source: Reuters/The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research). I'm not for a minute suggesting anyone deserves this or it's justified in any way but the point is that if you keep supporting a terrorist government who are committed to the annihilation of the Jewish state and believe that terror is the answer, at some point there will be repercussions.

If those living in Gaza could be empowered to overthrow their warmongering/genocidal leaders, things would be very, very different. We just don't know if there's the appetite for that.

Also anti-Semitic attacked on Jewish people has risen by over 300% since October 7th. People are using the conflict to justify airing their anti-Semitic views and I’m seriously ashamed of those people. This includes displaying swastikas as Pro-Palestinian marches (something the Met police say is not anti-Semitic) and comparing the conflict to the Holocaust (which the Holocaust Memorial Trust set out very clearly falls under the anti-semitism umbrella, their definitions are adopted the world over)

Thank you for saying this. I don’t think many can imagine being hated, targeted, shunned for a government you have no influence over and who you totally oppose. The war in Yemen could not have continued without the RAF training pilots how to fly bombers and deploy their deathly cargo. If Yemeni citizens marched each week shouting that the UK supports genocide, would you be ok being made to feel you should be carrying the blame for that ? I am Jewish. I am atheist. The 7th October left Israel with few choices. Netanyahu has made the worst choices and isolated the state completely. I am not responsible. I want Arabs and Jews to be able to live alongside one another . It can’t happen while both leaders want to wipe the other of the face of the planet. I am not going to be ashamed of being Jewish. I am not going to be ashamed of Israel. I’m scared and tired of being treated as if I’m responsible for all this madness.