Stopping contact due to cleanliness

[OneOliveFox]

Looking for some unbiased opinions/advice please.

My child (4) has been coming back from his dads house saying it’s dirty. This was a comment made once or twice and I spoke to dad about it who said it’s not it’s fine. Then he went again and came back and said it was still dirty so I said I’d talk to dad, which I did again and said please if it is please sort it as it’s obviously bothering him enough to mention it. He then started mentioning it to other people, my friends, family etc and going into detail about the mess (toilet, his smelly bed etc), this really started ringing alarm bells. I told dad this who again assured me it was fine. I asked to look myself for my own peace of mind to ensure it was safe for our son which he agreed.

Cut to me going to drop our son off and seeing the house is in fact filthy. Floors looked like they hadn’t been hoovered in months, dog wee everywhere (not just recently done), rubbish on the sides/floor/sofa, used vape liquid bottles, sticky floor and very smelly to name but a few issues. A totally unsanitary environment for anyone never mind a child. Our son has come home a few times smelling too. I didn’t make it upstairs so can only speak for downstairs but I can only imagine. I told him I was not comfortable leaving our son there so I’d take him back with me until he could sort it. He wasn’t happy and said there was nothing wrong with it other than needing a hoover (I promise you that floor had not seen a hoover in months). This went back and forth getting more and more heated on his part until finally he agreed to clean it and I managed to get away with our son.

Since then I’ve had countless messages, missed calls etc saying do not deny me access, I have no right, I’m not getting any maintenance etc and still reiterating there is nothing wrong with the place other than needing a hoover.

Where do I stand? I should add we have an informal arrangement for contact and maintenance no court involvement etc. But with what I saw today knowing he was happy for him to have our son there and how many other times he’s been going when it’s been like that (haven’t been able to see in before as curtains are always shut and he never invites me in) and the fact a 4 year old is listing the mess and dirt to me and other people honestly breaks my heart and I just don’t know where to go from here.

My dad's is like this - I hated staying there and still do but nothing anyone has said in 20+ years has changed anything. He still won't acknowledge that it's filthy. He even has a cleaner and it's a bit better after she comes but he doesn't do any home maintenance so the roof/ walls leak and everything gets damp and he's a bit of a hoarder too.

I don't have any advice really other than it's not your fault and honestly there may not be anything you can do, don't waste too much energy on it like my mum did.

It made me appreciate the work my mum put into cleaning and made me want to always put the effort into having a clean home.

Maybe you can get your son a sleeping bag with a sleeping bag liner and a pillow with a fresh pillowcase so he always has clean bedding?

Best of luck OP stay strong.

I also think its great that you have an agreement outside the courts. Don't go to court over this- you won't get anywhere. It sounds like your son is being very vocal about the situation - tell him the truth- his dad has a right to see him, there's not much you can do about the cleanliness of other people's houses, it's your dad's house it's his job to clean it, maybe your son can offer to "help" his dad clean the house

Did you live with his dad before separating?
Was he like this before?
He has now turned abusive in his communications with you.

It sounds as though he has addiction issues or mental health problems. And it sounds as though his dog is being neglected too?

I would be seriously concerned.
You can go through the CMS to gain maintenance if relations break down between you.
Youre not being fussy- the environment doesn’t just sound messy, it sounds hazardous, and I’d be concerned for my child’s welfare.

Stoo the visits is my advice - or insist he has ds elsewhere- at his mums house or something?

Sorry to hear your dad was like this too! This is what I worry about our son being older and looking back on these years and remembering his dad for the filth. It’s just heartbreaking that a 4 year old is asking me to go and clean his house so he can stay there. I got my son a new bed for here and gave his dad his old one from here as he was still in a cot there. This included the quilt, multiple sets of bedding etc so there’s no reason for him not have clean bedding when he goes there. He’s also on a lot more money than I am so it’s not a ‘can’t afford to provide it’ issue.

Yes we did live together but I worked less hours so I did the majority of the cleaning as I was home less and also he was lazy. He’d do it if I nagged and nagged but it was normally easier to do it myself to avoid the arguments.

I do agree re MH again something he refuses to acknowledge and yes the environment isn’t safe for a dog never mind a child.

I admit I do have high standards when it comes to cleanliness and don’t get me wrong my house is rarely show home ready it is lived in and gets messy but it is clean. There’s a big difference between messy and lived in than filthy like I saw today. This was unground dirt and floors that looked like had never seen a mop. I’d be surprised if they’ve been mopped since I moved out 18+ months ago. Unfortunately we live away from family so can’t offer anywhere else for him to see him.

I've seen places like you describe (used to do home visits in my previous role) and there is no way I would let my DS stay there. I understand it is hard on your ex not to see his DS but you are right to put your child first. I would contact Children's Services and say that you would like them to assess the environment at your ex partner's house because you have concerns about cleanliness and safety.

Is it worth call NSPCC and talking to someone?
not sure if this is bad enough for social services, I mean it should be as it sounds awful and so unpleasant, but not sure you can stop sending your DS just because the house is dirty.

such an awful dilemma, as it clearly bother your DS and is clearly not a pleasant experience for your child.

roll on him being old enough to refuse to go

can you agree to send your son if he allows you to check the house before leaving him. if it is still the same then just agree to him taking him out during the day but not staying over. offer him this and if he can't then tell him you will have to contact social services and take it through family courts.

I’m not too fussy about a messy home either but I would be concerned about dog mess and foul in toilets. It’s very unhygienic for anyone but particularly a small child who by nature will touch things, put their hands in their mouths and don’t have the immunity of an adult.

If there is nowhere else for visits to be held, is it out of the question for his dad to stay at your house during his parental contact- you could perhaps stay with a friend?

I wouldn’t blame you for stopping ds going and claiming maintenance through the CMS.

This is the trouble. Social services will have a threshold and lots of low but not low enough standards just aren't serious enough for their involvement. I saw it time and time again as a DV advisor; poor quality parenting on the part of the father usually (as contact is a relatively new idea compared to years ago) but those poor standards are not bad enough. The pendulum has swung and now fathers get contact and the next question is, is their parenting good enough? In lots of cases, but not all, it is not good enough but not poor enough to warrant involvement or contact preclusion.

My worry with going down the SS route is that from what I’ve read things have to be pretty severe in terms of cleanliness to warrant them stepping in and whilst I admit it was very bad, it doesn’t hit the level of mouldy food (that I could see) drug paraphernalia etc although DS has also said the toilet is ‘pooey’ and the bath is ‘muddy’.

Yes this is my thinking 100% ^ see previous comment. But the thought of sending my child there makes me feel sick and so guilty

I did offer him this and his response was ‘you’re not setting foot in my house again’ so that’s out of the question. But the state of the house there is no way he could get it up to my idea of a liveable standard in less than a couple of days and he’s demanding I drop our child off tomorrow morning.

He has stayed here before to see our child together for special occasions etc like Christmas before he had the dog but this probably couldn’t happen again a) because his personal hygiene is also appalling and he stinks and if he’s not cleaning his own house what would I come back to with mine and b) I can’t have dogs where I live

Contact the authorities. Pet urine (and probably poison) is unsanitary and is no place fur a child. I would tell him unless it's cleaned your son will not he going there- he can see his son outside the home. He sounds like he has mental health issues and the council have a department to deal with this kind of living situation.

My child would not be going to a house covered in dog’s piss, shitty toilets and empty vape bottles everywhere.

It might not meet social services rock bottom thresholds, but it would meet mine.

I would speak to an experienced family solicitor about where you stand on this and proceed from there.

Your poor son having this bloke as his dad

He definitely does have mental health issues without a doubt and one of the reasons we separated was his unwillingness to acknowledge these and seek help.

From the advice I’ve had re solicitors ‘a dirty unclean home doesn’t mean an unfit parent’ and it would have to be really bad to prove in court which is my concern. Part of me wants to say he is not going back there and take me to court for access but is my son not seeing his dad the best thing in this situation. However I’d worry if he saw him outside the home, as we both have parental rights he could then refuse to give him back to me based on the threats I’ve received today and it could get even messier.

well it's a hard no to dropping him off tomorrow. Tell him you are stopping visits until social services have deemed it fit if he won't let you in. tell him he's welcome to visit and take your child out for the day but no way is he staying there

it's not just dirty it's unsafe. pet urine and vape bottles are a risk to a 4 year old. social services will get involved as i've seen it happen myself.

I didn’t have my dad in my life growing up (no fault of my mams) and have tried so hard to facilitate and nurture their relationship because of that but there is no way he will be going back there until I see for myself that it is safe (which he is refusing) and with nowhere else for him to take him I really don’t see where we go from here.

Like a lot of you have suggested I think SS may be my next port of call as if he won’t let me in, he’ll have no choice but to let them in if he wants to have our son there again.

Op are there other family members or friends who could help and support you/dad?

does he own or rent? Can you contact landlord? Not to put his housing at risk but for support to help him?

it sounds like things are only going to get worse, at what point do you say no? 18 months of no cleaning, 2 years, 5 years?

is child being supported with personal hygiene, brushing teeth?

fire brigade also assess properties, they do visits which may help in identifying if property is safe for child.

I do think you need to raise concerns about the state of the place as your child is reporting concerns, they don’t want to be there.
is child at school? Nursery?
they will start telling others about this, what happens then?

dad could take child to shops, lunch, park etc. home needs to be clean and safe for child. Be clear on expectations and stand by them. Do you have photos? You may need them to evidence the state of the place.

none of the above is easy

Has he mentioned taking you to court if you stop access? It sounds as though his life is chaotic, you say he’s incredibly lazy—he has MH and drug issues- I’m not sure he’d bother going through the courts.

If you’re concerned about him stopping maintenance, you can claim through CMS can’t you?

I think the suggestion above might be a good compromise to insist on shorter visits, perhaps as a family if you can face a day out with him?

I know someone who got In trouble with children's services about the state of the house as it was neglect. I'd give them a call to see where you stand on it.

Your poor son. He probably can’t verbalise what he feels about staying with his dad as he’s only 4, but he’s trying to tell everyone around him that he’s not comfortable going there.

I really sympathise op- it must be so difficult but it sounds like you’re doing your best to improve things.