China and our children. AIBU to be deeply concerned?

[Concerningalgorithms]

I read this article and am so concerned. So many of our kids are on TT.

https://nypost.com/2023/02/25/china-is-hurting-us-kids-with-tiktok-but-protecting-its-own/amp/

Basically, TT and other SM have the same effect on our brain as addictive substances such as heroine. Developers know this and create highly addictive (make use of our knowledge of the reward centre in our brain), apps/platforms/games that leave us with dopamine crashes when we can’t have it. So that tantrum or meltdown when we say ‘turn screens off now’ is partly, if not mostly, to do with that, is one example.

The article above says that China use different algorithms there for TT so it is helpful for children’s development. They are peddling addictive, concentration lowering crap to children around the world, but protecting their own children.

Why are we allowing this? Why are we not protecting our children too? The science is there.

And AIBU to think that we are at risk, as a country, of raising a generation that will be less well adapted and more vulnerable in the future to a hostile take over?

Well I do sometimes have to do that test about whether you are a robot or human twice. Is it a ‘crosswalk?’ Isn’t it? I dunno.

Im not sure what I’ve written that’s xenophobic. If you could point it out I’d be grateful. I’ve criticised the Chinese government and will continue to. I’m not a fan. I’m not a fan of our government though either.

It’s mot true to say screen time is unhealthy, excessive screen time is.

You introduced gambling not me. The suggestion being we don’t let children gamble so we shouldn’t let them have social media. It’s not a simple case of “children cannot gamble”. Children cannot gamble because they cannot enter a contract. Social media doesn’t involve a contract. There are controls around social media. Parents enable children to bypass and don’t take adequate safety steps. It’s that simple. Which is why the majority of children don’t suffer.

Lots of things are addictive. It’s a parents responsibility to navigate that. Governments cannot legislate this.
China is a controlling state that doesn’t promote freedom. The cost is not worth it. You’re also sourcing American news sources who are notoriously biased.
Saudi Arabia also does, shall we model our society on them?

Curious - do you know what percentage of teenagers actually access tik tok? Why is that a concern to you and not say, the age children view online pornography on average? Something that has nothing to do with the Chinese and is again down to parents not being parents.

also - did you deliberately gloss over that China has teenage mode for under 14’s whereas in the UK you are supposed to be 13 to even access?

Ah, agree to disagree then

Why are you being so argumentative? I don’t get what your beef is and why you are being so snippy. Have you got some kind of vested interest here?

I added a quote about the law on gambling being about harm to children. No idea or interest in contract law and will just assume you have greater knowledge than me.

I don’t have the answers but I see the problem. Every day at work. I am not suggesting we adopt significant social control measures and go as far as China does. But there is a middle ground which could be more invested in ALL of our children’s development, rather than leaving it to pot luck.

Yes it is a youth version and the age limit for TT is higher here, but kids get access to it much earlier. Parents don’t understand why there are these age limits and what the risks are. The producers of these platforms, IMO, should take more responsibility for the harm their products do.

And, it’s not just TT I’m concerned about. It’s all addictive screen use. TT is just the example I’ve used as the article got me thinking about why we aren’t doing more and why China might be (thinking about from an individual health and societal/economic/political perspective).

There have been articles about this on The Independent, The Guardian and other non US sources. It’s not bias. It’s fact that there is this different version of TT with different algorithms.

And to be clear, I am not blaming China, I’m curious as to why they are doing that and seeing it within the wider geopolitical landscape and it concerns me.

I don’t think you can really argue that we probably should be doing better for our kids. Your arguments seems really to boil down to ‘I don’t like to be controlled’ which is fair enough. Neither do I. But there are certain laws and policies that are there to protect us all and develop ourselves as a nation. Like mandatory education. Seatbelts. Laws around smoking, gambling, alcohol and drugs. We now have extremely controlling laws around protest which I find far more disturbing than the idea of legislation to push providers to consider the harm to and the health and well-being of end users.

It’s mot true to say screen time is unhealthy, excessive screen time is.

I'm wondering the same thing as @Concerningalgorithms - why are you arguing with me when I've never said any screen time is bad? I've always stressed excessive screen time is which unfortunately, is extremely common now.
I also think that screen time focussed on short bursts format like TikTok has detrimental effects on concentration and focus.

I love screens and the amount of high quality entertainment and learning it offers is phenomenal but it's a bit of a deal with the devil. It steals our time and impacts on our mental and physical wellbeing.

Sorry that was meant to quote @Otherstories2002. Not sure what happened.

And what do you think they should change?

What clearly evidenced risk is it that you think parents don’t understand as opposed to don’t consider a risk? Have you actually looked into the demographics of the children accessing excessive screen time? You’re aware it’s often poverty driven right? Tik tok is free. Going to a zoo is not. What exactly do you think the government should do? Have you considered that Tik tok usage is a consequence not cause. Heroine - your comparator - is addictive. People don’t start taking it because it’s addictive they start taking because there are already issues there. That’s what we should be addressing.

I work with children and families and see the harm first hand of parents that struggle with this for a multitude of reasons. Children’s development and wellbeing is my area of expertise. Parents are crucial. Parents are fallible, flawed and do their best and some parents don’t make the best choices for their kids.

There is mixed but emerging evidence of harms and the action these things have in terms of our reward centres in our brain are fairly clear. Obviously science always moves on, but if we look back in history, those with vested interests tend to ignore or refute the science until they can’t any longer (tobacco industry for example).

Are you saying companies shouldn’t take responsibility to make sure their products don’t harm, or at least put in harm minimising (especially for children whose brains are developing)?

I think socioeconomic status is often a contributing factor. I think I have mentioned that as one of the risk factors above.

I totally agree that we need to address the underlying problems too but that’s a whole other thread.

I also work with children including children with special educational needs. In an arena beyond further education.

You have been asked a number of times what you think companies should do? Not China - companies. Because China is a controlling state with no respect for human rights. What is it you think should happen?

Age restrictions? Check.
ability to control algorithms. Check.
ability to limit screen access. Check.

its all there if you choose to engage in it.

Also - let’s address the reality of this issue. Number of kids with access? You’ve avoided that question. You’re reacting to an emotive news article and keep saying you work with young children but don’t seem to know the hard facts.

Also - companies don’t take responsibility. Name one that does? Where the target audience isn’t minors. That’s your issue. They aren’t targeting minors. Minors shouldn’t be on it without monitoring and that’s a parent job.

I have made suggestions. I have also explained that I see the problem but don’t necessarily have the right solutions.

There are plenty of companies that take responsibility rather than just make profit.

Especially if they are forced to via legislation.

I think you just have a bee in your bonnet for some reason and have taken a dislike to what I’ve said and are not really reading what I’m saying. I wish you and your bee 🐝 the best.

Name them.

Quite apart from the fact that that is a rather rude and dismissive way to speak to someone just because they disagree with your opinion, don't you think that it's something of a "pot calling the kettle" comment given that you have banged on about your opinion, given that yoiu are an expert in this field (in your words) without any variation for two whole days now? It could equally be argued that you are not reading what anyone else is saying. You are still going on about legislating something after dozens and dozens of posts explaining why legislating for it won't work. And for the umpteenth time... children should not be on these sites anyway, and since the sites have no realistic way of monitoring the age of someone signing up, it is the parents responsibility to monitor the use of the technology that the parents give their children access to.

We don't insist on tighter controls because the people in power think they can benefit (generally but not exclusively financially) from letting China do what the fuck they like. Anyone who voices concerns is demeaned.

What tighter controls do you expect?

I'd be in favour of legislation that changed the business model of social media from adverting & data harvesting to subscription. I think that would mean it was incentivised to create features that people want rather than just to keep them online as long as possible.
I'd also be interested in further research and ideas around creating slightly more friction in the process of posting or sharing things, not to stop it but just to make it slightly more effort - I think that would reduce the spread of misinformation significantly.
What would you do?

This is separate really from the geopolitics of what China is or isn't doing.
(My previous post I mean)