NHS treatment poor compared to some overseas countries?

[PSEnny]

I’m on holiday with a family member who developed an infection. This is linked to an ongoing issue but no sign or symptoms of infection before we left. We’re in the Canary Islands. At 8.30 this morning we had to go to a local medical centre. Saw a doctor within minutes of arriving. 30 minutes later the issue had been diagnosed and an injection given which was a combination of antibiotics to kill the infection. Doctor also checked urine. Not by using a dipstick but by putting the sample in an analysis machine. This revealed an additional infection. Over the next 2 days relative needs to go back for daily injections of the antibiotics. We were fully expecting to be given some oral antibiotics (family member has been given these before when the same issue arose). NHS have never checked urine for a potential other infection. We asked the doctor why we hadn’t just been given oral antibiotics. Doctor discussed how the UK gets it wrong in a lot of its treatment, that the injections are the best course of treatment and that the go to over the counter antibiotics wouldn’t have got to the root of the problem. Doctor spent 30 minutes completing a full examination. In the UK you’re lucky to get 5 minutes with a GP. I’m guessing there’s a cost issue in that oral antibiotics are cheaper? And the additional time needed to do a thorough consultation is also costly but if it meant that issues were actually treated properly would this actually save money overall?
This isn’t to bash the NHS more a thought about why the best treatment isn’t offered and why thorough consultations aren’t carried out when other countries can do it?

Erm, it's good, efficient management to have some extra capacity in any service you are running, actually. So yes, doctors should be sitting around waiting for patients sometimes, the way people sit around waiting for work sometimes in all jobs, and there should be spare hospital capacity etc. Running a service at 100% usage (or worse!) means you have no flexibility, your staff is over-exploited and burned out, and in any emergency or unexpected situation you're bound to do badly.

Only in the UK the government is proud of running the health service "red-hot", people have embraced constant puritanical moralising and accusing others of being lazy, against all reason or logic. It's ridiculous. All functional systems must have redundancy built into them.

I think I prefer the NHS approach. Diagnosis of exclusion is a far less invasive approach.

If it is through insurance you will have been treated as a private patient. It is not comparable.

Yeah you were fleeced.

I agree. Had the same thing last year. One in France, one in the UK, both involved emergency care. The service and treatment in France were streets ahead of what we got in the UK.

Post emergency care in France we had daily nurse visits to check and dress wounds. In the UK, we were abandoned post discharge, with no ongoing care and I had to beg the GP for an appointment to follow up.

Overall cost in France was less than £120, which we got back through the GHIC card.

A family member lives in France and has experience of both systems, the choice and speed of treatment in France is far better. The majority of costs are covered up front and any others are reimbursed. (Their experience of the NHS is also before it turned into the shitshow that it is now.) I accept that their system is not without faults and issues, but it is far superior.

Exactly. I'm a GP who led on antimicrobial stewardship for a big organisation. Uncomplicated UTIs getting IV/IM antibiotics? Now I've heard it all.

NHS is not fit for purpose and bursting at the seams, but this treatment your relative is receiving sounds like gross over treatment and possibly a bit scammy to get more money.

I have to agree here, trying to run at full pelt all the time isn’t efficient, mistakes are more likely to be made, staff get burnt out, patient satisfaction goes down etc. For example - giving a practitioner 20 minute clinic slots when it takes 30 minutes to do a decent consultation for the majority of people means that the practitioner is rushing all day long, plus probably misses their break (which has been shown to significantly reduce overall efficiency) and patients either frustrated about being rushed or their appointments running late (often both). Not mention patients affected by mistakes, which most of the time will be minor but still frustrating for the patient to sort out but sometimes major mistakes resulting in significant cost to the health board. A little bit of slack in the system is much more efficient, whether it’s through reducing the time and cost of the overall health team resolving complaints/issues or reducing recruitment/retention/training costs of staff who get sick/fed up and leave/reduce hours/less willing to cover gaps etc

The NHS has its faults but they would never not send help because it was up a track. If the deemed you couldn't be moved then medical help would get to you even if it took a long time. And being expected to care for relatives overnight is also common in some European countries. Perhaps the NHS should trial that to save money.

We expect a lot from the NHS and already then surprised when it can't deliver.

I agree. I live in Spain and I was told how good the state health care was but the reality is is vastly superior to the uk. Both myself and my dh have serious illness currently and we are having treatment that isn't even yet available in the UK unless you pay privately

I see a GP the same morning as I request. Hospitals are well-resourced and no one seems particularly stressed and overworked

It's so sad to see what the NHS has become

A change of government is essential

The antibiotics over-prescribing thing seems to ignore the fact that sometimes they are needed and needed for long periods. A colleagues son, he was about 5/6 had had bronchitis as a baby, it had left him prone to chest infections and coughs. They’d go to the GP, they’d give 5 days of antibiotics, cough would die down then start again in a couple of weeks. Rinse and repeat.

Her DH had cover through work. Took him to a private GP who said he needed to be on antibiotics for at least 2 months to properly clear the infection. Now, surely both GPs had had the same training, so why can a private GP prescribe what is needed yet the NHS gatekeep and make a little lad suffer constant infections and coughs?

And they pay more for it.

If the uk had done the same for the last few decades, the gap would be far smaller, or even reversed.

I'm.not defending the NHS I used to work.for it and I know it has many problems however I have a diabetic son who is insulin dependent
I do not have to worry about paying for his insulin or worry about what if I can't afford to.pay for a tratm4nt he can't live without.

Same.

Healthcare is fabulous in Spain.
Giving birth/hopsital unfortunately very lengthy stay/anything in a&e/husbands cancer treament/scans etc

Swift and efficient. Always.

I've needed to see a doctor twice whilst in the Canaries (different islands and a year or so apart).

First one - fantastic. Excellent treatment and changed a longterm medication for something far more effective than I'd been prescribed for years in the UK. Around £120 for in clinic treatment and medication going forward.

Second one - totally fleeced. Over £600 for norovirus type illness with countless injections. They asked if I had medical insurance and basically took the piss. Fortunately my insurance agreed to pay the bill.

(I have a pre existing medical condition that makes dehydration dangerous so need to do something about vomiting asap).

But that's travelling as a tourist. Spanish state healthcare is exemplary. I am mid cancer treatment and my husband has a life threatening illness too and currently in hospital. The treatment and care is amazing. And "free'

And yet a PP said they wouldn't sent help because of the location of her villa and told her if he husband was admitted overnight she would need to stay to look after him

In Spain relatives do the nursing care. The Spanish system just does the medical side.
There is also virtually no home carers, relatives are expected to do this. Spain also has a flat 30% rate of tax in earnings.
This will work well if you have a large extended family who are willing to care for you.

French healthcare is generally recognised as being the best in the world. They pay more for it. The problem in Britain is we expect the best healthcare but want to pay less for it.

On average we pay less

Pay less get less, simple really

The exception is the us which pays more but on average gets less but that's the benefit of full on privatisation

It amazes me that people still think privatisation is the answer. Look at the privatisation of our water. This is a simple product and yet privatisation has made it an utter shit show - literally. Sewage in our waterways and beaches.

Totally agree with you @NoisySnail But also, what is the answer then? Because the NHS in it's current state is appalling for staff and patients alike, so something needs to change.

@Zimunya It needs more money. We have less nurses and Drs than most developed countries and less MRI scanners and hospital beds. Get the private sector out of the NHS, they cream off money. Stop corruption in government giving lucrative private NHS contracts to their mates.

DH works in healthcare. He used to work for the NHS but now an outsourced private company. He is now looking for jobs in the NHS again. He has been shocked by the company. They have great marketing but when it comes to healthcare he says their approach is like the NHS thirty years ago. So old fashioned, and not at all patient centred.

@helpfulperson hospital treatment as a tourist is not going to be the same as treatment for a resident. Quite obviously.

They don[t have your history for a start and you are on holiday in a foreign country. Probably not even speaking the language.

The Spanish system is amazing. I can only speak as someone living here. Not as a tourist here. But, I can compare it to the NHS.

Where does the money come from?

The biggest fraud foisted on the NHS (and education) in recent times was the Brown/Bliar PFI spending frenzy, lumbering us all with over £300 billion of payments over several decades, at a capital cost between 2% and 5% more that the Government could have borrowed at. But, if the Government had borrowed it they wouldn't have been able to 'invest' it in other things. So, that Government effectively spent £300 billion of our money twice, with more than £200 billion of that being commitments that extended beyond their time in Government. Combine that with contracts negotiated by Civil Servants and not commercial contract experts, and you end up with the situation where we are still paying for the swansong of the last, failed, Labour government nearly 20 years later. Bring back coalitions I say...!!!

The great PFI heist: The real story of how Britain's economy has been left high and dry by a doomed economic philosophy | The Independent | The Independent