Torn on this. Autistic little lad in restaurant.

[EggsBenedick]

Hi all,

I firstly want to make clear that I am not wanting this to be a bunfight or an ableist type of thread. I'm genuinely interested to hear people's views on this, as the family in question have asked to put in a complaint to the restaurant along with them.

We were eating an all you can eat type place, mostly Indian / Bangladeshi cuisine. I've added this as this may be relevant from a culture perspective.

It's a nice place, not somewhere too posh but not your run of the mill everything you can eat for a tenna place. Was quite busy in there too.

Seated next to us was a family of 3, with a little lad about aged 8 or 9. After he came back with his plate of food he took his jumper and T shirt off. People were looking over but the parents didnt seem bothered by it.

A member of staff came over and asked the parents if the boy could put his top back on. The member of staff was pretty polite initially. The parents refused to ask the boy to put his top back on. The staff member then went to get another member of staff, who came over and said he just put his top back on during the meal or they would have to leave. The mum then said to the waiter 'if we put his top on he will just scream the place down and ruin everything for everyone'. And explained that the child is autistic.

The parents made no effort to put the top back on the boy.
The staff member said to the family that they would have to eat quickly and leave. By this point the mother was visibly upset and indirectly spoke to us saying 'I wish my son could just be accepted.'

The boy was completely topless in the middle of the restaurant with lots of other diners around.
They had a few mouthfuls and came over to our table and asked if we would leave a Google review complaining about their time at the restaurant and how they aren't inclusive or family friendly.

AIBU to be torn in this? I'm genuinely intrigued to hear people's opinions on this. I could see how difficult it was for the mum. But on one hand I think the parents should've at least tried to put the T shirt on the child as it's not appropriate for a child of that age to be topless in a restaurant. But, the child shouldn't be confined to their home to eat. I would be concerned about strangers / men looking at my semi - naked child most of all.

I don't think I am going to do a review as I can see it from the restaurants POV also. I said to the mum that I was sorry she had such a stressful time. She clearly needed support. The dad didn't say or do a lot which was most helpful!

I just want to clear something up.

I wasn't dripping feeding at all. But multiple posters have made nasty comments about my fear of children being exploited. I do have a fear of this and my fear of children being naked and semi naked, is that you don't know who is looking at your child or what thoughts they have. I know it's impossible to control, prove and whatever else. I have made it clear that it is an irrational fear I have and I am in therapy working on it. I didn't drip feed anything in. I was asked / questioned why I would have the fear and I replied explaining it is due to sexual assault at 6 years old.
I was recorded on a cam corder without a top on, in the summer, playing outside on a hot day. That same summer I was forced to have a grown man's penis in my mouth and also had is tongue down my throat.

This has left me with very irrational and logical fears when it comes to children's safety. I am working on this through therapy. My daughter does not miss out on swimming or beach days, she just doesn't ever go topless. She wears a sunsuit or a swimming costume. So to all the posters telling me that it's irrational, vanishingly rare, silly and everything else that's been said on here. I KNOW. Hence why I am in therapy.

This wasn't the point of the thread and I didn't want to derail it. But I'm not having people goad me or say I was drip feeding, when I wasn't. At all.

I won't be coming back to this thread now, but it's been an insightful read and the general thing I can take away from this, is that we all need to be less judgemental.

you are saying one cannot expect to go to the cinema and pay to be able to watch a movie without major disturbance ?

You should. But it's not a 'right'

The OP has said that the staff did ask, were made aware, and the parents were given time to finish their meal then leave (because the parents refused to even ask the lad to get dressed). The OP only got the full picture because she was sitting at the table next to them!

There are lots of replies on the thread, thus it seems some confusion has arisen regarding responses to specific questions/points. I've explained several times now that other diners could only be expected to understand/excuse/explain the situation to their own kids if they were aware the lad was autistic (which they couldn't know just by looking at him)! And I can't imagine the lad and his family would've found it preferrable to have it explained/announced to everyone else dining over what they got (a quiet request to finish their meal and leave).

And there's a vast difference between a vest top and being bare chested! A bare chested woman (with her nipples out) wouldn't just be asked to leave a restaurant, she'd probably be reported (and arrested I'd think) for public indecency!

But do you not feel it is incumbent on the parents/guardians of the person causing the issue to remove them, as the cinema cannot ask them to leave? Just as one (hopefully) would with a screaming infant?

Yes. I personally would, others may not. However you need to understand what 'rights' are in this context.

Nope. Not at all, as I have made clear in several posts. There has to be compromise. And the compromise here was to let this child deal with his sensory overload in the most appropriate way - by taking off his t shirt, which disrupted no-one. The alternative was to insist he put it back on which would cause a meltdown, and be far more disruptive fo everyone concerned. It’s called tolerance and understanding.

I am wondering how far tolerance and understanding goes. So what I’m gathering from this thread is that: 200 cinema goers who’ve paid top price for a ticket have no right to enjoy that film. Instead, parents who may take their child who can’t cope have the over riding right to not allow anyone else to watch the film.

Any behaviour can be excused if it’s linked to a disability. How far does this go? Adult exposure? Physically hurting or verbally abusing someone? Rape? What is the limit here? 25 year old Joe Bloggs doesn’t know it’s unacceptable to strip off and grab a woman’s bum. “Oh, accommodations must be made as he’s disabled and doesn’t understand social norms.”

Honestly, God help these children who aren’t being given any guidance at all on how to function in society. They will need all the help they can get as no-one is guiding them. Clearly.

Well done to the vicious trolls coordinating from outside towards the op. Disgusting behaviour.

But that goes both ways. Very disruptive behavior (again, to me, that does NOT include a shirtless 8 year old) should be managed by parents/guardians. As in the cinema example.

It’s not the business of other diners and they don’t have a right to have the reason communicated to them. The boy employed a coping mechanism to defuse his anxiety. Other parents are perfectly capable of disciplining children who know right from wrong and if it becomes known that there is ND then that’s an opportunity to teach their children about it, and that associated behaviour not being a green light to behave badly themselves. And yes, a bare chested woman would probably be arrested for inappropriate behaviour. And if that behaviour was due to ND she would be adding to the statistic of people with mental health problems ending up in jail because of the lack of understanding of the behaviours involved.

Yes, agree. I think this instance has split opinion because the child was trying to cope and the parents recognised that the alternative to allowing this was a meltdown. People here seem to be saying that they were wrong and should have insisted he get dressed. Once it had been communicated to the staff that there was a disability and this was the best way to deal with it quietly they should have been left to do just that.

They have every right to have a reason explained to them if their kid has decided to undress too (and isn't being excused).

And I think references to the equality act are a bit of a red herring in this instance. Showing you’re disabled under the equality act is an involved requirement; the law isn't designed to be thrown about as a threat by whomever may decide to.

I don’t think any behaviour can be excused by disability, no. But a disabled child quietly using a coping mechanism to avoid a disruptive meltdown clearly isn’t acceptable to some either. And it doesn’t mean no-one is guiding them. ND doesn’t have a one size fits all guidance system - each person is different, depending on the level of cognitive function impairment.

We’re talking about disability here and there are some posters here who are clearly at their wits end and isolated because their children are not capable of learning, despite the desperate attempts at ‘guidance’. So you might want to look at the inappropriate and insulting analogies you’re using here to get your point across, because it’s attitudes like this that make life miserable for people with these conditions and those who care for them.

Well as a mum to an autistic child I’d say how does a child not wearing a T-shirt really impact on others? It’s not a huge issue for others, but for an autistic child wearing clothes can be so incredibly uncomfortable and overwhelming. My son hates wearing clothes and if he wanted to be topless in a restaurant I’d really not give a damn. As a parent of a child with autism you have to pick your battles. I agree with the mum, people need to just accept her son. So long as autistic children’s meltdowns/behaviours aren’t actively hurting/badly affecting anyone else please just leave them to live their lives, their hard enough as it is.
i wouldn’t ever ask someone to write a review though.

No, the law is designed to protect disabled people from exactly the kinds of attitudes on display here. Why is it necessary for the parent of a non disabled child to be privy to the private medical details of a disabled child in order to parent and discipline their own child, who is quite capable of understanding right from wrong ? At that age they don’t need a detailed explanation there and then. As MN is fond of saying ‘no’ is a complete sentence. If it’s clear there’s a problem then fine, but they’re no more entitled to an explanation of disability than a nosey Parker who rocks up at a disabled space to demand the medical details of those who don’t ‘look disabled enough’.

No-one can answer the question asked by multiple posters. How far does it go? Not behaving to societal norms because of a disability is fine. Yet where is the line here? What’s the age cut off? No-one can answer it because like it or not a functioning society has rules and laws. Parents not preparing their children for this are failing them.

Equally they are setting them up for a lifetime of exclusion if they think they can just not attempt at functioning in society because reasons. The absolute entitlement of some people thinking they have rights over everyone else. That’s not equality. It’s route to exclusion through peer frustration. The equality act speaks of reasonable adjustments.

I see it every day and I saw it when my own children when through specialist school. Many parents are their own children’s glass ceilings and I’ve no time for it. So @ me all you like. I won’t change my mind.

Not saying anything of the sort and l’ve explained what l mean in several posts.

It wouldn't be necessary, in all likelihood, because most businesses would act as the restaurant in question did (ie make an allowance to a point). And its highly unlikely there would be any redress under equality laws for that business.

You’re as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. And just as there is no easy answer to the question ‘how far’ there is also no easy answer as to how to impress on a child that their behaviour is unacceptable when they have a level of cognitive impairment meaning that they have no concept of what acceptable means, and no ability to learn. There are posters here dealing with those levels of disability and have first hand experience of the isolation it causes because society has no tolerance for it, so people are ostracised through no fault of their own. And my problem with your post was the inappropriate and insulting terminology you used to describe such people. Thereby perpetuating the cycle.

Then what are we arguing about ?

my fear of children being naked and semi naked, is that you don't know who is looking at your child or what thoughts they have

Its not irrational though is it?

There are people out there who record children half naked and post them on websites - I know that some of DDs friends were on their being shared - the police were involved and the children traced:

Some will never know.

I think everyone here is on the same page as for protecting children from harm, either from adults or harm from accidents.

It isn’t the place to be topless, but I wouldn’t let my kids run round naked either on the beach.

As a society we were clothes for protection. Take that away and the child is even more vulnerable.

People in the restaurant were watching, the parents felt vulnerable especially the mother, and the child was - who wants that?

I didn't think we were 😊 Just chewing the fat, as it were.

People in the restaurant were watching, the parents felt vulnerable especially the mother, and the child was - who wants that?

The people in the restaurant could simply have stopped watching and got on with their meals though couldn’t they ? Instead of gawping and making things worse. If we’re to be properly inclusive as a society and not just playing at it, then it’s this kind of thing that needs to stop.

A young autistic lad with no too on... No problem.

It's night like he's a fat, sweaty hairy backed man kicking off and there's enough of those about!

Personally, I may not of noticed. If I did, it wasn't going to put me off my food.

Yeah, leave a review. It was buffet, he was sat, not wandering, topping up.

Oh. OK, happy to go with that. 😁lt’s been frustrating at times, but this is one of the most interesting and thought provoking threads l’ve seen in a while.