to think many politicians who claim to be Christians and who say this is a Christian country really aren't Christians and would criticise the teachings of Jesus

[cakeorwine]

Lee Anderson saying this is a Christian country and complaining about some councils celebrating Ramada with lights.

"But let’s turn our attention back to traditional values for a second. The last time I checked Britain is a Christian country, it is enshrined in our law. So why is it that one of the most important religious festivals in the country is not proudly celebrated in the nation’s capital? Just like Labour, the Tories also refuse to stand up for Christian values it seems. Their candidate for the Westminster constituency said the lights were to be “welcomed” before paying trivial lip service to the promotion of other religions and their holy days. Under successive Tory governments British culture, identity, and values have ebbed away, and the rate at which they are doing so seems to be rapidly increasing.
Let me be clear, this isn’t an attack on Islam or any other religion. I firmly and absolutely respect the rights of individuals to celebrate their faith, but who in the establishment is standing up for the Christian values that made our country so great and revered across the globe? Can you honestly believe that if the shoe were on the other foot, a Muslim country would decorate its capital city with Easter decorations during Ramadan?"

'UK is Christian – it's time to demand our country back' | Express Comment | Comment | Express.co.uk

Farage saying that he has stopped going to church because of what someone said

"Mr Farage said: "I won't go to my local church, I won't go. I am christened and confirmed in the Church of England, all my family on both sides have been Church of England.
"I used to believe in it, I used to attend, not every Sunday but regularly during the year, I will not go. It is hopeless, they've given up, they've surrendered."
Nigel Farage reveals why he has stopped going to church: 'It is hopeless!' | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

I firmly believe that these two, as well as other politicians who claim to be Christian and to believe in Christian values would be the first to have Jesus locked up for his views. They would not understand the story of the Good Samaritan.

I say this as someone who is not a Christian but who can see what Jesus was trying to say about helping others and particular values.

What now?

I don't think I could judge the faith of another. Really, the whole 'they aren't really Christians' when we're discussing people who are using Christian messages we can find in the texts and gaining power from Christian communities is to dismiss the impact of that power. It's been used time and again for abusers in churches and all it does is tell victims that churches will not take ownership of their own, will not recognise it's own power and influence in this situation. It's basically holding a near impossible, shifting standard to be able to wash one's hands of responsibility - which does fit neatly into some lines I think by Paul that those who turn away from the churches were never truly Christian. That's been used to abuse a lot of people.

Having no faith in any religious organisation, I'm quite happy without any of the public displays and still have found it odd how many very public, religious messages I've seen around Ramadan where I am in the East Midlands, whereas I've seen very few comparatively about Easter. Part of that is the Muslim communities are willing to buy billboards, put it on buses, talk with shop owners about displays, whereas I don't think Christian communities are as willing to do that these days. I had a meeting with a dean of a local cathedral this week, and he said on leaving to the meeting, 'Happy holidays for those it applies too', he literally leads the meeting in prayer, we discuss his work in helping Church of England schools in their "Christian distinctiveness", but also seemed timid in case he offended any of us. The most the local churches do is little flyers or handing out cards, or signs on their own property welcoming people. It's almost like they're almost afraid to be seen too much.

The use of public spaces by any organisation does in part define the space, it's part of the culture of the space, so yeah, I can see why some Christians - whether others see them as Christianly or not - not liking that Christian organisations aren't as willing to do the same as Muslim ones are currently doing. It's not any of the Muslims communities fault for this, but I can see people blaming the churches for not keeping up in public spaces.

When a person who claims to be Christian displays none of the values that Jesus taught, I think it can be concluded that they aren't Christian. Or weren't listening to the Christian message. Or maybe they just don't get it?

The Bible isn't univocal and the values Jesus taught can conflict and be read in different ways.

Some read and focus on the forgiveness and his time with the lowest in society, some will focus on the coming to bring the sword, divide families and 'go and sin no more'. Some focus on spreading the gospel to all of the Earth. All of those are messages and values from Jesus. They are all part of the Christian message. All denominations and individuals choose their focuses, but they're all there in the texts, before getting into messages in other parts of the Bible.

They largely do, don’t they? At least in the UK.

My point was that the same politicians who have no qualms about wading into issues related to religion profess outrage when religious leaders have opinions on politics.

From a balanced point of view, I have no more issue with religious leaders professing political issues than any other self-interested bodies (charities, trade associations, the WI) doing so. They represent a certain group of people with a certain view.

But the rank hypocrisy of politicians aligning themselves with religion when it suits them but complaining when leaders of those religions have an opinion on policy decisions (based on the teachings of selfsame religion) is worthy of comment.

My Dad always said Christianity is a great idea, someone should try it.

People who claim to be Christians very rarely actually are.

I look forward to them stopping banging on about hot cross buns, Ramadan displays, Easter egg hunts and mythical bannings of the nativity in schools.

I feel like politicians may sometimes need to intervene in religious matters, for example making a statement on abuse within the catholic church or when commenting on food banks (often run by religious groups), to name but a couple of examples. Religious leaders do not need to be involved in politics and shouldn't be. There is no place for it.

I haven’t seen any of that from the leaders of the main political parties in the UK.

Me neither.

Religion should be kept well out of politics. Of course it won’t be any time soon.
Education, too.

Not UK, but Google Senator Ronan Mullen.

There are still quite a few CofE affiliated schools and also in central Scotland there are many Catholic Primaries and Secondaries, however xtian religion is featuring less and less in traditional non-private schooling, thankfully. Unfortunately there are also quite a lot of people with extreme religious views, who home school or who set up faith schools, though.

Well, he is Irish and Ireland is traditionally stuck in the past in terms of religious power, compared to the UK at least.

That's an interesting narrowing of "politicians" in a thread quoting a politician complaining about how last time he checked it's still a Christian country, etc, who has also recently criticised the Archbishop of Canterbury for expressing a view on policy matters.

Look, I'd love a properly secular state. Get the bishops out of the Lords, ditch faith schools in the state sector, let's do it.

But that doesn't alter the fact that some politicians like to use Christianity when it suits them but then complain when it bites them in the arse, and that those politicians are hypocritical dicks.

We have moved on quite a bit in the last 20 years thank you very much! But he's a clear example of a strange, young enough person with opinions that belong in 1800s. He's probably our equivalent of JRM actually!

did Jesus say anything about eggs, Jesus wasn't born on Christmas Day...Yes, some traditions have pagan routes. Take a bow

They do like to say that, but easter eggs aren't pagan. They originate in medieval Christian churches as a popular way to break Lent, which turned into decorating them to give to others.

There are several Christian folk tales of the time period, most with Mary Magdalen either having a basket of eggs when she came to the burial chamber of Jesus and the white eggs changed colours as a sign of the miracle of resurrection or her preaching later, her being heckled to provide proof and an egg in her hand miraculously turning blood red.

Rabbits are also from Christian stories and are in medieval period were often painted with Mary because European brown hares can basically get pregnant while already pregnant and when it was observed that they can have a litter in too short a time for a full pregnancy, it was linked to virgin births. The two would later come together, with the rabbits as virgin birth which leads to the resurrection and message.

We only one classic reference of Ostara/Easter having anything to do with paganism, the Venerable Bede saying the month was named after a Germanic goddess. That's it. We've no reason to think he's lying, but no other sources to give us any idea how true it is, no idea how she might have been venerated beyond his reference, nothing. The idea that all the Easter things were connected to her and paganism is a Victorian idea with the popularity of the concept that everything in the Abrahamic faiths must come from some earlier 'true religion' source, a concepts that is perpetrated today, erasing the complex history or that much of Europe doesn't use a Germanic name for this festival, but one rooted in Hebrew as the early churches connected it to Pesach.

I think there is a difference between being culturally Christian which this country is. And religiously Christian. The same way their are cultural Muslims and cultural Jewish people and I'm sure every other religion. They live their life broadly within the schema of that religion e.g. Celebrate holidays and festivals, broadly agree with some over arching principles but may also often perhaps do things that do ACTUALLY align with the teachings of that religion.

I was always taught that we are all sinners in God's eyes and that we are saved not because we are good but because God is. So, they can still be Christians even if they've done some pretty awful things.

They do seem to be hypocrites though, I see what you mean. I don't think if I was a good Christian I would judge them though; I'd just pray for them. But I'm as imperfect as anyone else, so I do judge them a bit.

Basically, I don't think Christianity is a good benchmark for being a good and accepting person. It isn't about being good or perfect AFAIK.

Edited to fix paragraphs

Oh yes, sorry my last wording sounded cheeky (quick reply) - I do get that things are moving on but my understanding is that there is still far to come? Apologies if I got that wrong. Central Scotland, where I grew up, also still has far to come with certain religious issues too.

You said political leaders.

Last time I checked, Lee Anderson wasn’t a leader of anything and Nigel Farage will say anything if it gets him attention (and also IIRC isn’t the leader of any political party that actually has seats anywhere)

We have come very far, very fast tbh. And there is probably a degree of whiplash that comes with that. And also, not everyone wants rapid change (in terms of schools for example). But in general terms, I'm early 40s and I remember the exacting control of the church, no divorce, no gay marriage, no abortion. The latter two only have been introduced in the last decade. They were however introduced through referendum, demonstrating that attitudes are actually changing throughout the country, and for most age groups and a mix of socio economic groups.

I don't think the Lee Anderson quote has anything to do with Christianity, it's just an opportunity to be Islamophobic and by extension dog-whistle racist.

No. Because I don't mind having a state religion.

We don't have a state religion, hate to break that to you.

Yep that’s the point of the thread isn’t it?