Friendship worries

[Pippin24]

I’d appreciate your thoughts on friendships generally. I am going through a very tough time recently. I’ve been very let down career wise/ home wise and my mental health is suffering. I find it difficult in the extreme to ask for help though I will go over and above for any friends that need help. I’ve driven hundreds of miles to be with a friend who had a bad health diagnosis, babysat, gave money to help with Christmas etc. basically been a friend.

I tend to be the person who sorts out issues rather than someone who comes with issues to be sorted. I’ve recently reached out to 2 close friends to tell them how hard I’m finding it lately. Literally called them in tears. Support from them has been minimal at best. I told one how hurt I was at the lack of contact and support and she reacted badly - basically said she wasn’t aware that she needed to check on me etc. has her own stuff going on etc. my DH has said to ignore it- people are selfish but I’m so hurt.

I get that it’s stupid to be upset but I just feel so let down by it. Friendship isn’t transactional and neither would I want it to be but I would have thought that I warranted a call at least. I think back on the times that I’ve dropped everything to call them or physically go to them when needed and I feel so foolish now.

If my teenage son came with this story I’d tell him they weren’t friends. Here I am well into middle age doubting my own friendships.

Ahhh OP, I'm glad my post gave you some small comfort. If we can't get what we need in real life, sometimes a virtual hug from an online stranger can help to soothe the hurt. I asked myself the same questions and ultimately decided that, no friends are better than bad ones as if they only serve to add another layer of misery to our pain what's the point? We need friends to support and love us through the shit times, not add to our problems .I can trace my behaviours to childhood and never really understanding that I was allowed boundaries of my own, that I could and should express my emotions and other people's needs shouldn't trump my own. I'm still a work in progress tbh and I'm only learning things now that the rest of the world have been practicing since their twenties! But yes, when you're ready, join some meet up groups / hobbies but try being a little less giving, a little less kind, a bit more explicit in your own needs and a little less ready to be the 3am emergency contact! It's easier to practice a new you , one with healthy boundaries, with new people as the precedent hasn't yet been set...

I think it's important to remember @Pippin24 that different people are good at different things.

I'm a fixer. You want me to sort your internet out, or help you change a tire, I'm your man. Need someone to look over your kids CV and suggest changes, or even offer advice on how to solve your relationship issue, still your man.

Come to me with a problem I can't fix though, and I'm worse than useless, I'd go as far as saying I'm a bad person

I went to visit family last weekend for a wedding. I should have gone to see my Grandad on the Sunday. He's in a care home with dementia. It would have taken an hour or two out of my day at most, and I've not seen him in a year. I couldn't do it, told my Aunt my hangover was too bad and swerved it.

My best friend is currently going through a horrible divorce in another country. I'm currently dodging her calls. I was great in the early days, helped her get messages off her husbands whatsapp, read through custody laws in said country etc. Now all I need to do is listen to her vent while she waits to find out whether a judge is going to let her bring her child back to the UK. Again, I can't do it.

I love both of these people hugely. My Grandad was my favourite grandparent, I've spent my life being closer to him than my own father. I've known my best friend for over 25 years and she knows things about me that my own DP doesn't.

And I'm failing them both. Because I can't cope with seeing someone I love hurting and not being able to help, to fix it. In theory its easy, all I need to do is take an hour of my life, and talk to them, or listen to them. And I can't do it, because it hurts my own mental health.

I'm being a crap friend, a crap grandson, and I know I am. But I don't have the skillset not to be. And that doesn't mean I love them any less.

@Bobbotgegrinch
That's a great post if you don't mind me saying and fwiw, you don't sound like a crap friend/ grandson at all! Intact You sound deeply empathetic and caring. You know your limitations but you still show up and help in the ways you can.

@Bobbotgegrinch But there are some situations where you show up.

I can't speak for OP but my shock has been the people who won't show up for anything - emotional or practical. In fact, I think the latter pisses them off even to be asked.

I know emma but I find people not reliable now. You kinda wonder why bother having friends. I think with me had a few letdowns with people so my guard is up!!

You're right, but that's still kind of what I mean. I have the emotional bandwidth to show up sometimes, but I think some people don't even have that. And I think sometimes people think the best way to show up is to disappear. They think "X has way too much going on at the moment, so I won't ring him or text him, he doesn't need that at the moment". Its probably misguided, but that's what they think is best.

When my Mum was terminally ill, I went out for a couple of pints with a mate. He'd been AWOL for months, since I'd needed some support, and I finally bumped into him out and about so we had a couple of pints. While out I had a bit of a rant that I felt useless and that I couldn't do anything etc. And you could tell how uncomfortable he felt listening to this, that he really couldn't deal with being that kind of friend.

Two days later he calls me and asks me to help him with something, a really obscure technical problem. He says no worries if you've got too much on your plate right now, so I politely tell him to fuck off. But now that problem is sat rolling around in my brain, and 3 days later I've found a solution and told him. It made me think he was a bit of an arsehole, but it'd been nice to actually have something to fix, to do.

A few years later I'm in a pub with his ex, and she's having a bit of a bitch about him. I bring up what he'd done when my Mum was ill, and she laughed. She said he'd spent the two days since our conversation desperately trying to find something productive to take my mind off of things, and eventually come up with something he knew I'd find annoying yet irresistible.

That was him trying to help, to show up. I saw it as him being a dick. People are weird, and what seems like the right behaviour to one, can be utterly bemusing to someone else.

@Bobbotgegrinch I am genuinely interested to hear that point of view, thank you for saying that.

I am very careful how I talk. When dad died, I would say to people "would you like to meet, don't worry, I don't want to talk about Dad". I was very grateful to just meet up and talk about normal stuff in fact.

I have no problem with people saying "sorry, I don't have the emotional bandwidth to cope with this". Though maybe I'm meant to guess rather than expect to be told.

However, for me, it has been being completely ignored or even told that I'm stupid etc for needing help . One person I mentioned upthread, she actually did the famous MN tinkly little laugh while she told me I was being stupid to ask for help after a breakdown.

And there's quite a few posters here who are saying they've been met with really unpleasant reactions when they have asked for help.

That does seem very different to the situations that you've talked about.

I have thought about this thread a lot, probably some good and some bad has come out of it for me.

I was in floods of tears last night about how different my life is now without friends of 20+ years.

Even looked up a couple of people on social media.

They are out and about at things that I would previously have been invited to.

I do believe that you should be allowed to invite whoever you like, I don't think exclusion is bullying. So that's not a criticism - but a confirmation that they have not simply retreated into family life as some of them are claiming.

I just find myself really wondering how my life turned into this, and if there was something that I did wrong, if I needed to take responsibility for something, I'm happy to do that.

I haven't been plaguing people with problems btw. I had a breakdown last year but some of these people were not wanting to meet up for years. I realised that one or two of them are now hitting six years of "we must meet up". Take out two years for lockdown, still a lot.

My mother used to say "oh well, everyone's busy but they'll be around if you need them". Er, no.

But it's reassuring to hear there are still people like you around @Bobbotgegrinch who will lend a hand in a practical way and it sounds like you understand friendship too.

sorry, that was very long!

PS I signed up for an evening class today.

They asked for next of kin information.

My sister doesn't like doing that kind of thing (lives in another county too) and I don't really feel I have anyone else to write down. It's a bit shocking to find yourself that isolated.

Yeah, I'm not for a moment saying that some people aren't just shit friends. There are people who only care about others as long as they get what they want from it, the very definition of fair weather friend.

But I think in a lot of cases it can just be misconstrued awkwardness, and people not knowing how to deal with it. In the UK in particular, we're taught not to show our emotions, show our problems, stiff upper lip and all that. I think that's changing with current generations, but it's a slow process.

I've learnt not to expect anything from friends. When shit hits the fan, some people you expect to be there will let you down, and others will step up completely unexpectedly.

The morning after my Mum's funeral, a friend of my brother's turned up at the house. He's someone I've always disliked, a complete waste of space and someone who's likely to drop you in the shit. He'd not come to the funeral, but just showed up the next morning, shopping bag in hand, and proceeded to cook our family the biggest fry up we'd ever seen. He sat, ate with us, told a lovely story about my Mum, did the washing up and promptly fucked off. I'm still not a fan of his, but that gesture did a lot to redeem him for me.

Am so sorry to hear about your so called friends. I’ve been there and felt the burn.

Just recently, there was a thread on here about wise words and I read something along the lines of ‘don’t make someone a priority when they treat you as an option’. It struck a chord and your post brings it to mind.

Stay true to yourself and be your lovely self… just be more selective about who you care for.

@Bobbotgegrinch That's another funny thing in perceptions.

I actually think we've gone the opposite way to stiff upper lip, people overshare now.

I think people are, understandably, wary of others trauma dumping on them.

And I actually have wondered if people are reluctant to help because they think they'll be exposed to trauma dumping, general over sharing. I generally don't want to talk.

Asking for help after the breakdown, I did say to them "don't worry you're not going to find me keening a the corner - i just need a bit of help with the unpacking in the new place" and I really wasn't going to accept more than an hour help from someone and then I'd have bought lunch. I'd have offered petrol money etc.

I have to say if you can’t occasionally share a worry with a friend then is it a proper friendship? Life is so difficult- death, job loss, relationships breaking down, worries over children, health etc - all these things happen as well as a million good things. A friend will enjoy good times with you and support you through bad. Not take your worries on but support you.

Are we now so shit as people that when someone who has been a true friend when you have need help- asks for reciprocation - that the first thought is to try to refuse.

I know people show love and care in different ways but they still show it! Be it making a meal or letting you cry it out - others just take and don’t care!

I agree with you. It certainly isn't how I have defined friendship over the years. I definitely feel there is a big cultural shift at play here.

I don't suppose you've heard from these people in the last couple of days?

People so busy now. People got very self absorbed. Disheartening. My friend said keep yourself busy. Lol. Thank god for my dog.

I had a friend once who to me was a sister. Decades of friendship. So Close and I supported her through soo much- often to my own detriment. And often to my families detriment.

We'd be together and Sing "lean on me" and hold hands and lock eye "it won't be long, til I'm gonna need somebody to lean on" - turns out, that was ONE WAY. As soon as I needed the hand, as soon as I needed a friend, someone to lean on? I was a fucking lone. It is not an exaggeration to say that friendship was the hardest break up of my life. It broke my heart .

Most of us, deep down, are either primarily a giver or a taker. Mostly it doesn't show up until a 'giver' becomes the needer and then is let down.

Sometimes those you think of as outlier friends are the ones who really step up when times are tough.

100% to both these things. Yes, there are givers and takers; you really notice who's who when the giver needs support themselves.

I'm that person who'll always puts myself out to see 'close' friends (some of whom live miles away!), drop whatever I'm doing if a friend needs me, never forget special occasions, support friends with kids (despite not having any myself!) etc, etc.

Then I have those 'outlier' friends, who I might see only occasionally, have fun nights out with etc.

When I had a major crisis a few years back, guess which group was there for me!?

And the other? Not a peep!

Emma I have in fact heard from
them not it’s nearly like they are ticking off a box. I spoke to one friend about how upset I was at the lack of support and she told me I’d upset her - that she was sorry but she isn’t me and able to look after everyone all the time! It just baffles me - I don’t want someone mothering me I just wanted a phone call and some genuine concern!

Can I ask you all - is it me that needs to change? It feels like the only way to not feel so shit is to not be myself- not be giving or at least view people suspiciously.

im just so let down with it - I feel so sad

Bluntly, yes, @Pippin24. Not to view other people with suspicion, or to view friendships as transactional, but you need to ask yourself why you seem to see what you bring to friendships as being helping/rescuing/ listening/acts of service — to the point where you say that to even imagine not ‘being giving’ means you would not ‘be yourself’.

Do a thought experiment for a minute.

Imagine that you were completely unable to offer any kind of ‘giving’ to friends. You were unable to listen to their troubles, give/loan them money, drive to see them when they were in need, babysit for them, help them move house etc etc. You are for some reason unable to do any of this.

What else do you bring to a friendship if being ‘the giver’ is taken away?

Because it often seems to me that people-pleasing to this extent comes, often unconsciously, from a lack of self-esteem. You don’t believe that you are worth friendship because you are interesting enough in yourself, so you offer services instead. Which, of course, often has the sad effects you’re now experiencing — you make yourself invisible, because you present yourself as a source of service.

Tell me, OP, leaving aside your anger at their failure to support you when you’ve supported them — do you genuinely like and value these people?

Pippin no but perhaps Im too invested in friends and then they let me down. Its hard. My daughter was say have a few friends not rely on one. Like you Im a bit disheartened by it all now.

Brilliant post. You've nailed it. I didn't want to change either and become ' less giving/thoughtful/ kind(!)'But I had to ask myself the same questions you have raised and do some deep reflection to find out why I was such a people pleaser, when it wasn't doing me any favours. Weirdly enough, now I've started to be less giving and passive, people respect me more for it and I've had much more reciprocal relationships! Go figure!

YANBU at all. It’s massively hurtful to be treated like that and to be viewed solely as a source of help. It’s odd how resentful some people get when you put your foot down.

I had one friend, for years she was offloading trauma onto me on a daily basis. Not even phone calls, where we can both talk but super long voice notes and texts where she will go into a big monologue or just be crying. Her partner just shuts her down, so instead of challenging him she expected her friends - mainly me - to be her sole source of emotional support. It got to the stage where she’d be getting weekly NHS therapy but then unpacking her sessions with me. It was awful 😣 this was during lockdowns when she knew at the time I needed/wanted therapy but was told I couldn’t get it on the NHS. And yet she still used me like a 24/7 therapist knowing I had little support and my own issues and she was the one with access to therapy .

My insomnia kicked off mid-pandemic and when I even so much as hinted at how it was affecting me she’d change the subject or hijack the topic to talk about how bad her own sleep was. It soon became clear she just seen me as a source of support and was uncomfortable with a reciprocal friendship.

Over the years I’ve also been there for her financially.

I changed how I interact with her completely now . I don’t go to her kids parties, I don’t gift money ,and most importantly I refuse to provide any sort of therapy service.

We still talk but because she trauma dumps randomly, I limit our conversations and sometimes for my own sanity ignore the constant negativity from her eg. If she’s got a bad cold or an upset stomach she insists on updating me every day on how bad she feels, and how the meds aren’t working etc when quite frankly - it’s unnecessary. I don’t do that to her when I’m unwell. She is incredibly draining.

I seen a sign that said something like
“ givers need to know their limits because the takers don’t “ and it’s so true. OP you do need to change how you are with people and
I agree with @KarstRegion I had to do a lot of thinking and honest reflection as to why I behaved the way I did in a lot of friendships. Sure, some of it was just a genuine desire to help people, but I believe a lot of it was linked to insecurity.

Which, of course, often has the sad effects you’re now experiencing — you make yourself invisible, because you present yourself as a source of service

This sentence is very powerful and thought provoking. I think it’s spot on.

karst I did your experiment- I’m witty and fun and told I’m funny so I bring that. I am also giving though etc. I have thought a lot and I will restrain myself from being as helpful going forward. I will also make new friends who I won’t go out of my way for all the time. it’s shit but I can’t be my normal self if it’s going to hurt me.

I need to be more selfish and learn to say no!