Colour Blind casting

[ThinWomansBrain]

I know any statement that starts "I'm not racist but..." is usually exactly that, but I find colour blind casting in period drama really distracting.
I've seen two films and a play in the last week where it's been really off - why go to all of the effort of period costume and make up, and then have really implausible actors?

Wicked little letters - first Asian police woman was 1970s. not 1920s
National Theatre production - 1930s play - white couple with an inexplicably Asian Child
Catherine Booth (co founder of Salvation Army) was not black

It's particularly jarring when they are supposed to be portraying real characters.

In contrast, I saw some contemporary dance/theatre this evening, I don't even race or gender of most of the dancers.

Where is your evidence for this?

You are not alone in thinking this - a YouGov poll suggests just over half the population believes marginalised groups are overrepresented on tv - but there are no reliable figures on the actual representation.

Have you found some? Or is it just ‘a feeling’, in which case perhaps there needs to be some reflection on why you feel this way.

For that reason, standards of beauty were white-centric, and people in positions of power were predominantly white.

No, the reason for this is because they were written in Germany and Denmark where over 99% of the population was white.

I've seen a few black versions of Cinderella (brandy was in it) and it was fine. I am sure there must be a Bollywood version of it and a Chinese version.

It's good to have that plus of course proper new princesses to represent others (Tiana or the new Chinese lady)

Recent damsel movie (set in dragon times) had Angela Bassett as the kings wife (step mum to Millie bobbie browns heroine) and that was good. Using the step mother trope but bringing in more diversity.

Just keep families consistent with the parents race or explain there is a blending (like the new eastenders family). (Yes I modern stories adoption is possible but that doesn't make sense for historic stuff)

But the reason they became feted classics around the world is because the structural power at the time was with white people.

There will have been any number of fairy-tales written by non-white authors that are just as good as Andersen’s ones - but they don’t get published or distributed and so can’t get to become classics.

Same reason there are more male Nobel prize winners or artists - women aren’t lesser, they just weren’t allowed to engage in the activities leading to excellence.

See also, all the female authors forced to write under male / gender indeterminate pseudonyms.

Even in populations that did have ethnic diversity, standards of beauty conformed to white Eurocentric ideals because of power imbalance and racism. Look at the prevalence of skin bleaching products in some parts of the world.

You’re extremely naive to think otherwise.

I also find your username puzzling. Maybe white people shouldn’t be allowed to use ethnic spices. Get your own recipes.

Love what you did there 😂

This is in response to @ColonelDax, as evidence actually goes against your argument.

POC are not over-represented in the best roles: The most high paid and high profile roles. We know this by looking at acting awards. There are more and more POC in minor roles and tv adverts, which is good. But POC are not over-represented in the best parts.

Let's expand the Best Actress example: Few woman POC have been cast in a role that has Best Actress potential. Not due to lack of skill or talent, but lack of opportunity. If POC were truely over-represent in acting, then many POC would be nominated and winning Best Actress every year. This year was a historical first: the first Native American Oscar nominee. 0 Black women have won BAFTA Best Actress category in 76 years.

This is similar to wanting more women in CEO positions. We don't say "there are enough women in the workplace". Similarly, there needs to be more opportunities for POC at the highest levels of acting. This also means creating opportunities at lower-level roles for POC to build their profile and experience to move up the ranks into leading roles. One way to do this is for a screenwriter and producer to write a part (as artists) and say: "anyone, from any racial or ethnic background, can audition for this part". It is their art and their creation, they should have the choice.

But I've said this to you before...

Had this discussion with students in a critical thinking module a few months ago. The general consensus was that if the actor is portraying an actual historical figure, rather than fictional then colourblind casting is absurd so for example, casting a black actor as Henry VIII would be preposterous. If it’s a fictional story I.e Dickens or Shakespearean adaptation then it doesn’t really matter because it’s all made up anyway.

No that’s not what I’m saying and it’s not what I’ve said. Honestly stop trying to pick a fight by putting words into my mouth. I said what I said you can go back and read it but I’m not wasting any more time on you. Bore off.

Genuinely doesn't bother me. I think I'd only find it weird if the ethnicity of the character was pivotal to the plot eg To Kill a Mockingbird.

For historical stuff, who cares.

Sometimes I actually think it's a mistake to cast people because they bear a physical resemblance to the character in question. For example, the childactors in the Harry Potter films were apparently cast primarily because they were so physically close to the descrptions of the characters' appearances in the books. But all three are dreadful and wooden. Whereas the child actors who play some of the minor parts, are technically much more proficient and I wish they'd been cast instead.

Well, the historical Anne Boleyn was treated as "other" by many in the Tudor Court. Because she wasn't of one of the "old" noble families; because she was brought up in the French Court; because she was a gospeller; because she was outspoken; because she was an 'old' bride; because she was the "other women".

She was subject to death threats and plots to undermine her from day one.

So I actually felt that the casting aof a Blakc actress was quite a clever and considered move, given all of that.

It is actually pretty common still in recent times, but people mostly don't notice.

Recently we had Scarlett Johansson in Ghost in the Shell (2017), Kristen Dunst in The Beguiled (2017), Natalie Portman and Jennifer Jason Leigh in Annihilation (2018); Catherine Zeta Jones in Cocaine Godmother (2018); Taron Egerton in Tetris (2023). Did you notice any of these?

This is for fictional and real-life/historical characters too. There is a whole Wikipedia page about it if you care to look, and many easy-to-digest online articles too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewashing_in_film

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jessg/whitewashed-hollywood-characters

Wellll technically and according to the Celtic folklorist Afred Nutt in the 19th century, and many, many after him, Snow White symbolises wintertime. Her return from her exile (with the dwarves) symbolises the return of spring with the prince symbolising the sun.

In the classic folklore taxonomy it's Aarne-Thompson 709 (virgin princess - exiled in underworld symbolising winter - returns with sexual awakening symbolising spring) alongside similar tales like Myrsina (Greece), Bella Venezia (Italian), Noruie Hadig (Slovakian) and Persephone (ancient Greece).

So in that sense her white skin (snow) and red lips (life, passion, sexual awakening) are important HOWEVER I appreciate that modern audiences are no longer in touch with their folkloric heritage and so you're right - it doesn't matter!

I also find your username puzzling. Maybe white people shouldn’t be allowed to use ethnic spices. Get your own recipes.

So if growing it in the UK for 700 years is not long enough for something to be considered part ‘British culture’ how long do you think we should wait before something should be considered British? Does that just apply to spices, dyes, foodstuffs, or to people too?

And Jimmy Perez, with Spanish heritage, described as being small and dark in the Shetland book, was played by a blond haired blue eyed actor.

I had no idea about colour blind casting until I tried to watch Hamilton and I just found it really confusing. I was genuinely trying to understand the story, but was thinking 'were these people really black' which is a fucking big deal in US history, but of course the people being portrayed were all white.

There is a difference between colour blind casting for fictional characters where the race and often sex, or sexuality of the head teacher, prime minister, judge etc is inconsequential, but historical figures should be played by actors of the same race as the person being portrayed.

I think the main issue is that we are still watching plays that were written hundreds of years ago, when everything was based around white men. If theatres commissioned more modern shows then the characters would reflect modern britain, with far more genders/ethnicities etc being included. For as long as we stick with the historic stuff then we need to accept that anyone can play any of the characters, otherwise people from ethnic minorities are being unfairly cut out from acting opportunities.

You’re the one keen on historical purity, not me.

Who said anything about British Culture?

Unless you can only stomach something that’s part of British Culture and so have co-opted saffron?

But well done on ignoring everything else in my post to concentrate on defending your incongruous position.

👏

I love that people are worried about what colour mermaids are and what accent is right for a rabbit. I honestly don't know the answer as I've never met a mermaid or heard a rabbit talking.

You’re the one declaring saffron an ‘ethnic spice’ and ‘get your own recipes’ implying it does not meet your ‘British purity test’ despite a 700 year history of being grown here. Why have you co-opted a Robin?

Snow White is was not written by Anderson; it is a folk fairy tale and though it was published by the brothers Grimm it predates them. We rarely hear their ending where the wicked stepmother was made to wear red hot iron shoes and forced to dance until she died. Disney chose not to include it for some reason.

I do however agree that more fairy story’s and folk tales from around the world should be written and made into film. Why does Disney not have an African ‘princess’? Why present the little mermaid as black or use a black actor for Snow White instead of new films based on African folk tales? Though I imagine these days they would likely be accused of cultural appropriation if they tried.

"There will have been any number of fairy-tales written by non-white authors that are just as good as Andersen’s ones - but they don’t get published or distributed and so can’t get to become classics*

I don't know, perhaps they are "classics" in their own cultures,,/ countries. We shouldn't assume that the whole world that call our classics classics.

I suppose the ones we know best are 1001 Nights or Arabian Nights. Disney has certainly used one of the stories, Aladdin, don't know about any others but I think the Thief of Baghdad might also have its origins in 1001 Nights but it is linked to Aladdin.

Just thought Sinbad is another one.

It’s a play on Reliant Robin, which is a British car, so no co-opting here.

And saffron is indeed an ethnic spice, brought to England in the same way most things were, turnips notwithstanding. My point, that you don’t seem to quite get, is that you seem to have double standards.

It’s ok for you to co-opt something ethnic (saffron) but not ok for global majority people to co-opt something white (the Little Mermaid).

Why?

And I have already posted (page 12, 0813) about the problem of too few parts being written for global majority actors - it’s definitely something to be addressed.

But until we reach a point where white voices aren’t heard more loudly in the commissioning meetings than black and brown ones, we need to offer good, juicy parts to everyone.

You mention that Disney significantly changed the plot to Snow White; did you take a moral stand against that?

Because the fact that you think it’s ok to update the story to remove the torture of a woman, reflecting modern sensibilities (or as modern as they were in 1937) but not to change the definition of beauty to include a non-white face says a lot.

Then why aren’t they being made into films?

Well, they have. If you look at the Disney cannon, we've had Aladdin (One Thousand and One Arabian Nights), Mulan (folk heroine from the Northern and Southern Dynasties) and Coco (Mexican folklore about the role of ancestor worship).

I'm not feeling very confident about PPs' assertions that 'fairy tales were written by men', though. Snow White, Sleeping Beauty etc etc are folktales, millennia old and passed down way before writing was widespread (or even known in many regions). In the sense that these were often stories passed down in front of the hearth or round the campfire to children, it's most likely to have been mothers who were the chief transmitters of this oral lore.

Also, many of these tales are based around passing on seasonal knowledge so are based more on geography, eg Snow White is about symbolising and reifying the experience of dwellers in Northern Europe during the difficult winter months, the Odysseys Wandering tales are about the experiences of early travellers from Greece towards Sicily - so I would say geography played more of a role than race/skin colour in why these stories were deemed important.

But it wasn’t until the advent of the printing press that such tales became known beyond a relatively small group of people, so in that sense, it was men (being the first to write them down) that ‘wrote’ them. I don’t doubt the oral traditions were not the exclusive purvey of men, but in terms of turning folklore into fairytales that spanned continents, it’s them.

And given it was white men who had access to that distribution model, it’s not a surprise that they are Eurocentric in details. Same reason Jesus is very white in the most famous depictions (eg renaissance).

We create in our own image and within our own world view.

So now we can choose to perpetuate the same view of what is beautiful, strong and powerful, or we can show the next generation that these things can be found in anyone.

Then why aren’t they being made into films?

I don't know. But I think that what you are asking is "then why aren't they being made into films by Europeans or Americans?" Because those are the films we tend to watch in Britain. Films made by Kenyan ( for example ) film makers retelling ancient Kenyan fairy tales don't tend to become very popular here, especially if they're in a foreign language!