To think a lot of people without kids don’t understand how free hours work?

[whatkatydid2014]

I’ve seen so many comments on threads about costs of childcare asking what more do people want when they already get x amount free.

Just wondering for some of those posters do you realise the extent to which the way “free” hours are managed is problematic for those working full time.

Imagine you have 20 full time places for 3 year olds at nursery and the cost to operate is £100/day per place for a 10 hour day. Current funding allows £6/hour (it will go up but hasn’t yet) for 30 hours a week and it covers about the equivalent of 2 days a week across a calendar year.

Now imagine 30 kids in total use the places (10 full time, 10 2 days a week, 10 3 days a week). In total you get an income for 100 days/week across all 20 kids

All kids get their 30 hours (2 days) as it’s based on both parents working and earning above a certain amount. Thats 60 days a week you only earn £60/day for.

Over the remaining 40 days you have to get back to your average of £100/day so the rate for the extra days is now £160

So the parent who would previously have paid £500 for a full week now pays £480 for 3 days (basically no saving)

The parent who would previously have paid £200 for 2 days does now have free childcare

The parent who would previously have paid £300 for 3 days now pays £160 so has a saving but not equivalent to 2/3 off their bill.

The bigger the gap between actual cost to run nursery at a profit and the government rate the worse the problem. At the moment, in some cases the gaps are so big & cost of living rises so steep that parents end up paying more when they get the free hours than they were without them.

My kids are already finished nursery and when they went this was a much smaller issue as the funded rates were not so far off the actual costs so I’ve no skin in the game but for all the “what more do you want” people - I think a system where the government is transparent about what people are actually getting AND a fairer way to split the subsidy between part time and full time nursery places

It really depends on the nursery. When our DC went to a private nursery the 30 ‘free’ hours meant the full time cost reduced from 1900 per month to 1600 per month which didn’t feel like much of a saving but they did attend 51 weeks per year 8am-6pm

we later moved them to a school nursery and genuinely got 30 hours a week free (9-3, term time). Paid for wraparound and holiday clubs but it worked out sooo much cheaper for us, so this is genuinely free hours that lots of non-parents see happening.

Funding is only 38 weeks per year, not all year round.

It’s fucking complicated and makes no sense. The childcare providers are basically having to pick up this mess and try and make it work, all whilst taking a pay/fishing cut in real terms.

did you know the funding also applies differently to different ages? And that the childcare provider only gets paid termly too? And only for children who are there from the start of the term else they have to wait til the end of the following term to be paid?

my sister is a childminder and is struggling to try and make this work. She said they are also now effectively paid by the local authority but without any of the benefits of being employed such as holiday pay or pension contributions, but with even more of the hassle of being self employed. Plus none of the parents understand how it works either.

How it worked for mine

9-12 or 12-3 was free. (Or 9-3). Could have five sessions, term time only. (These were the days before 30hrs)

Then extra sessions were paid for. (8-9, or 3-6, or extra mornings/afternoons).

It works the same at their school now for nursery children

At state schools you pay for the extra hours as well, and holiday childcare.

Because it would cost a fortune.

My nursery work the "free" hours in a way that doesn't help working parents. The hours you can claim for are between 8:30 and 11:30 or 1 to 4. So my DS goes for 35 hours a week but we don't get 30 hours free.
It will only get worse now they are increasing the ages that can get "free" hours. Nursery where I am will probably be okay as it's a huge chain but so many small nurseries just can't survive. It's not just parents that are being done over by "free" hours.

The whole thing is a mess. My DD is in full time, all year round, so we get approx 11 hours a week funded. We pay for her hours the rest of the week, and we pay for additional things like meals on top. It's confusing and makes it very difficult to check invoices to ensure they are correct.

Why so angry at childless people? It's not our fault the government has mislabelled the childcare scheme to their benefit.

Mine is open from 7-6:30 and that’s what I have to pay for so 57.5 hours per week. To be fair it needs to be open those hours to fit people’s commutes. My child is typically there from 8-5:30 but the extra hour at the end is needed for traffic delays and the extra hour at the start is needed for people who start work earlier /on those days I need to be there earlier.

I wish the government just made it easier and said here's £2000 a year or whatever it works out as that you can use against your bill. I hate what it's doing to nurseries and I hate that I have to pay for full days when I don't use them but I know the nursery is just doing it to survive. I think the fact it's termtime is a total joke. how many people work term-time only?

@Shadowchaser are you just trying to make people who work full time feel bad?

If they just gave you money then some people would just keep the money.

it would be better if they did it the same way as tax free childcare. Then it would be paid direct to the provider

@sashh if you try to withdraw money from the account, the government stops you taking the contributions it made.

The nursery DT’s went to (pre any funded hours!) only took children on a full time five days a week basis as they could easily fill all their places and had a waiting list. We dropped DT’s off at 8 and collected at 5.30 - same as the majority of other parents. Standard when both parents work full time - worse if you have a commute.

Err I think even people with kids don't understand how it works properly. At least I don't. Ds goes 4 days a week for 9h a day and once the 15 hours kick in based on our calculations we will get almost 2 days for free. Is that not right?

Does your child only go term time or all year round? The funded hours are term time only, so across the whole year, it is less than 15 hours a week. More like 11 hours a week.

And the nursery may increase fees for other days. You need to check what your specific nursery does.

Yes! I must admit I didn't and got a shock. It was like getting blood from a stone to get the actual price list after 15 hours kicked in. There was another nursery attached to a school that did actually do 15 funded hours - 6 hours per day excluding lunch. Another parent worked part time - couple of weekdays, an evening and a weekend day or something. She only wanted her child in two full days, but free hour sessions were only all mornings, all afternoons, or both for those eligible. Seemed mad.

No, not at all! I have 0 problems with nurseries or childcare and all of mine have been in some form of it. DH and I both work (him well over 50hrs a week) but realistically I doubt the govt could afford to subsidise a full 50 hours of childcare for everyone with the state the country is currently in.

I was a child minder in early tax credits days. They did use to pay parents direct. Which lead to some parents lying about how much they were claiming to get more more money or not paying their childcare and keeping the money

All year round. He turns 3 in August so will get 30h then. Does that make a difference? Can we squish the 38weeks in before he turns 3? I remember when ds1 joined preschool he did get actually 30h free.

Or how about people pay for their own kids and stop expecting the taxpayer to?

Surely paying for nursery should be a consideration taken when deciding whether to have a child or not. Either you can afford it or you can't. Same with feeding them.

Also, I assumed that the government is funding the 15 or 30h. If I understand correctly your post correctly, it's actually the nursery? Are you saying thst they will have to increase prices to still be profitable?

The government make a contribution towards the funded hours. Many nurseries may decide to not take funded places or increase their charges to stay in business. Many won’t survive.