Not to let me DH have a go at my sister for being socially inept?

[bergentulip]

My sister is a lovely person, has a very generous heart, but is very good at not doing things she does not want to do.
She has just maintained the role of being baby of the family.

She will do things if asked directly, ie 'hold DS2 while I just try and get DS1's lunch ready' 'can you take DS1 out for a walk to the swings for me? while I go to X appointment for DS2'... that sort of thing.
and has in the past been very generous and helpful in other ways- selling my car amongst other things.

However, whilst my Dad and I have been quite happy to deal with her in our own way, as my DH has come into the picture, and stepmother, it's clear her behaviour within the family is becoming a problem. It drives DH up the wall.

And it all came to a head when my sis came to stay very soon after DS2 was born. Whereas everyone else chipped in when they came over, she sat back and watched, occassionally playing with DS1. DH was livid on the morning she was going to leave, when he had to go to work, and all he could think about all day was that I had been left with a house in a tip (which he would gladly have sorted out if he was at home I hasten to add!), a 2week old and a toddler-- and was not coping very well with the whole BFing thing as well.

He wrote this very pointed letter to her, basically telling her she needed to grow up a bit, and not expect the world to do everything for her. I stepped in and begged him not to send it, and to let me deal with her, it would just start a big rift between them I don't want. She takes very badly to criticism, and I just think it could be done in a more subtle way.

It's a looooong standing problem with her really. She just makes no exceptions for her behaviour, or how she views the world, for anyone, and I think as she gets older, it is just starting to cause problems. Our family have discussed a few times since, my stepmother also seeming to be quite vocal on the subject, so she perhaps does need to be made aware that sometimes she has to do things she does not want to.
My Dad and I have just let her get away with not doing anything when we are all living together, for years, possibly being too indulgent after my mother died about 10yrs ago- she is now 24, me 27.

Is it really my DHs place to say anything though? We are all family, of course, but are some things just no-go between in-laws? Was I wrong to veto his letter?

I don't think it is your DH's place to say anything to her tbh. Definately veto the letter. YANBU.

YANBU

DH and I both have large, mad families and the rule is that we make decisions about our own families.

24 is a naturally self centred age if you do not have children imo. Unreasonable to expect otherwise really!

Letters like that are always a bad idea. Once something is there in black and white it is impossible to take back.

YANBU Definitely veto the letter. If she takes very badly to criticism, it will really hurt her and cause a rift.

TBH, she sounds very like me in some ways, and I've got Asperger's - so definitely socially inept!

I often need things spelling out for me, otherwise I just don't "think" of doing things. I also don't take criticism very well. But I mean well, and really do want to help - you just have to tell me sometimes. Sometimes I don't want to tread on people's toes, thinking, "well, surely if they needed help, they'd just ask?" . Or I think, well I could help tidy up, but I don't know where to put things...

YANBU - she is your sister and if you want help YOU need to ASK. If your DH sends a letter it could be something that cases upset for decades to come. You and your sister need to start relating to each other as adults that means open and honest communication - not missives from your DH.

If she doesn't have children herself she will not have a clue as to what is expected of her.

You were definitely right to veto the letter. it sounds an insensitive and inappropriate way of dealing with the situation.
It sounds like you and your dad might have to have a word if it's causing difficulties with both your dh and your step mother.

Good luck, family politics are just soooo difficult

At least she does help when you ask her in a very specific and direct way - I guess you just have to keep on asking and wait for her to grow up and take the initiative herself!
But well done for heading off DH's letter - that could have been a nightmare...

I agree with everyone else. I have aspie tendencies, if not actual AS, and like Mary, I would find it difficult to take the initiative. Also if I sense hostility I tend to shut down and go into myself, which would make me even less likely to be proactive.

It's often difficult to know just what other people would like you to do when you are a guest in their home. You only have to look at some of the threads on MN. If someone steps in too much then they are seen as interfering and controlling. If they don't do enough then they are selfish, lazy etc.

Your dh is basically expecting your sister to be a mind reader. If you would like help with something then ask her.

In any case, if there is a problem with your sister, it should be up to you to sort it out and not your dh.

She's 24 and childless and she was a guest, it's not her job to sort your house or look after the older child....not saying it wouldn't be NICE, but I think your DH was very wrong to be so cross. If he wanted you looked after more, that's HIS job.

I think it's all to do with expectations.

I wouldn't expect my brother to undertake cleaning or childcare/playing if he was visiting; every family is different. I would be pleased if he did anything but I certainly wouldn't EXPECT it.

I think the assertive way to deal with it, if it's a problem, is to say "sorry sis, I can't have you to stay at the moment, I have enough to do and can't look after a guest as well".

She sounds like my sister too - also Aspie tendencies if not the full thing.

Not your DH's place to say anything. You can bitch about her to your heart's content. It won't change her, you will always just work around her, but at the end of the day she is your pain and woe betide anyone (married to them or not) who tries to join in!

It sounds like he was annoyed on your behalf...you needed help and she was sitting there like a lemon. And he has probably been thinking for some time she takes advantage of you. So it is sort of flattering that he is so concerned on your behalf.
I can see why he was annoyed but the letter is a bad idea...next time she comes round he can say "would you help to do X?" and if she refuses then he can legitimately get annoyed to her face.

but you invited her knowing what she is like, if you thought having her might exacerbate your stress you should have politely told her. you were tired with New baby

knowing all this - you proceeded and then complain (Why). well what did you think would happen- that she would change all her enduring traits/characteristics. metamorphose into domestic-goddess-altruistic-visitor

angry and exasperated letters are best written and placed in a drawer for 24 (or 48 hours depending on how) you were taken out after that time elapsed ad reread and Burned

the written word is eternal, and hurtful because the receiver can ruminate over it and it can be shown to people. Think about it do you want that letter tearfully shown to all the family

a verbal argument always boils down to a "he" "said" "i" "said" and somehow the exact words get a bitty lost

so i do hope this does not get posted. it will just seem like the rantings of a deluded angry man, potentially causing more acrimony.

I don't think YABU at all. Whatever the background with your sister, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many childless 24 year olds who would think to offer to clean house or did anything much at all. If you're her (very capable sounding) big sister, she may even have thought you wouldn't take kindly to being offered. My elder sister is 3 years older than me and I wouldn't dare clean or even offer - she would go up the wall and think of it as a slight on her competence!

I sometimes sit there "like a lemon"...

Its cos I don't know what to do ... its not as if she isn't willing, she just needs to be asked I think...

Perhaps the key is to ask more things directly - I think you said in your OP she is able to respond if you do this.

My brother sounds a little like this; for those that don't know him he can come across as lazy/self absorbed etc. He also seems very immature - more like 15 than 35.

However if I asked him directly to make a drink, play with dds or whatever - he would. He may look surprised but he would not take offence. "My" side of the family are used to him, and dh got the measure of him quite quickly. Mil is horrendously judgmental even though she doesn't really see him. (may see him briefly at Christmas if they are all here)

I think you did the right thing fwiw.

Also as she is a lovely and generous person (to use your words) perhaps your dh should stop for a minute and be grateful for this.

Plenty of posters on here have relatives who are mean, nasty people. I know what I would prefer.

Thanks for all that. It has definitely given me something to think about.

I think I tend to treat her a little like a child, so naturally she reverts to that role. I do think I protect from criticism a little too much too. IS that a bad thing? Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

We have come to the conclusion the letter does not get sent, and that the best way to deal with things in the future is on the spot, at that moment. DH has a tendency to dwell on things, which never helps.
If I have just cooked dinner for her, and the washing up is sitting there whilst one or other of the DCs is kicking off, then it is very easy just to say 'hey, your turn to do the washing up' for example. Make light of it. We are not a family obsessed with washing up, honest(!) Just failing to come up with other examples at the moment!

Deal with a problem then and there. It is 10 times worse if dragged up even 24hrs later....

(oh, another thing on that trip that made DH irritated was that she borrowed our car to go to the nearest city for the day, and came back with the tank COMPLETELY empty, and just casually said something like 'oh, it needs petrol' - to the extent it barely made it 500m down the road to the petrol station. On questioning, she jsut said, 'oh, well, I did not know where I might find a petrol station' - a little unlikely when driving 30miles in one direction, and back again, and all through the town.....!)

Did you direct her to the nearest petrol station? Just ask her to do things that will help instead of brooding on her failings.

FWIW she is not the one who is coming accross as socially inept!

Why do people always have to resort to insults? How is that helpful? Who exactly do you mean? Me? DH? Have written the OP to stand back and reflect, and get advice.... not to point out how flawless we are- which no one is.

FWIW, I spoke to her about the petrol thing directly, and it's all like water off a duck's back. "oh yeah, sorry, should have filled up the tank" response, but can guarantee the exact same action the next time round.

Many people's posts have helped here, and get perspective on things, essentially that people are just the way they are and expect of them what is usual- handle anything else accordingly. Family business is family business.

I have to say I think Upwind has a point; it's your dh, not your sister who is coming across as socially inept.

It is very difficult to know how much initiative to take when you're staying in another family. I personally would get very offended if someone started cleaning my house for me, thereby implying that I am not good enough at it myself. (am slightly dreading db's visit for this reason as his standards are very much higher than mine). My view is that in my house I call the shots, if I want something done I say so, and if I don't say anything that's a sign that I don't want it done.

When dc's were little and I was struggling with bf'ing, dh did the housework after work and at weekends. Any offers of help from others were gratefully received, not expected.

The petrol is different, she should at least have offered to pay for that.

"Family business is family business."

Indeed, but if post about family business on a public forum, asking whether you are being unreasonable and are then outraged when told you are - you come accross as an even less reasonable

If you don't want people giving their opinions on your family business just don't ask for their opinions. If you want people to do more to help, explain to them that it would be appreciated. Social interactions just don't have to be as complicated as you are trying to make them.

tell him to butt out and leave it to you to deal with your family. tell him the last thing you need from him is the inevitable upset / stress / anger / fall out that his proposed action will cause. if there is a specific issue next time she is around he can deal with her direct if you agree. i think letters in these circs are usually just passive aggressive shields for not dealing with things in a direct but non confrontational manner..... dont let him think he is being tollay ept (or whatever the opposite of inept is).

True true....
Our family does tend to just 'muck in', so it's odd that in all the years she has not picked up this habit too. I can see for some it would be highly offensive, but really not within our family. Nature not nurture, huh?

And of course I do not expect people to do anything. It is after all my house, my life, my choices to have children etc.... but it's little things like 'thanks for having me', or 'thanks for cooking dinner'. She tends to turn up at the table after being called, and then swan off as soon as she's finished, without so much as a by-your-leave (or whatever that phrase is!). There are just certain lines of etiquette that most people follow, and she does not. I am familiar with it, DH not.

He does need to chill out a bit, not expect so much. The problem is, he now thinks there is a problem, so every tiny thing, and he picks up on it, and it's just more ammunition for him.
DH is VERY good with all things domestic though, and he's no ogre who thinks he just heads off to work and expects everything else to be done. I often feel like I have it too good, and he'll suddenly realise how much I get away with not doing(!)

The letter was more phrased as kind advice, I suppose, but it still would have been wrong, and patronising, and she would not have taken it as advice, but as very personal and direct criticism. I think anyone would.