Men Hate Women Pt2

[KattyBoomBoom95]

I was just about to reply on the former thread and realised it had reached the post limit, hence have continued on here.

I said I believed that men need to be careful when attempting to 'challenge' other men's behavior, especially when the perpetrator is of a violent nature or drunk. I also stated my belief that using the categorisation of male/female is sometimes less appropriate in my eyes than criminal/non criminal.

For example, there is always a lot of criticism aimed at 'men' for their much higher rates of perpetrating homicide. However, if we divide by murderer/non murderer, then literally over 99.99% of men are innocent, in contrast to when we use the distinction male/female in which case we can talk about all men. My point was that you wouldn't usually categorise a group based on the actions of a fraction of a percent of them, even if these actions were represented more frequently in that group than another.

I generally believe in personal responsibility over group culpability/sins of the fathers, yet after some thought I actually agree with the previous poster's example of boys at school egging each other on and I do think there is a situation here whereby men could object without putting themselves at risk in many instances.

Sorry, hit post by mistake....

One thing that does still bewilder me though (and I've got my Teflon jacket on for this!) is that people are often very dismissive of data that challenges the modus operandi when discussing this subject. It's almost like there's a kind of cult mentality around discussing male violence.

For example, I posted a link to the world's largest domestic violence database and pointed out that the biggest meta review of DV (covering 1700 peer reviewed studies) actually found that women perpetrate DV at a higher rate than men, as did the 32 nation dating violence study, and a fair few others, one of which had 500,000 respondents.

That data was pretty much ignored and I've noticed a distinct pattern when I've seen the same data posted on here several times before. This should surely be an earth shaking revelation that challenges the 'truth' many of us have come to accept - I certainly didn't believe it when I first read it and had to go and read it myself.

It seems that more woman are seriously injured (no doubt due to men's vastly greater strength) but women still perpetrate more DV according to the bulk of research.

Every time this gets posted people just carry on as if they haven't seen it and then another thread about male DV gets created and the same people inhabit it and make the same statements about men as if they didn't see the data posted numerous times before.

This sometimes makes me wonder whether people really care about the truth or whether they just want a justification for hating in the same way racists/sexists/homophobes do.

Controversial opinion I know but I feel like 1700 peer reviewed studies can't be ignored. It's only gov/police data that paints a very different picture and we already know that this only collates officially reported cases and men don't like reporting DV due to toxic masculinity/fear of being seen as 'weak'.

I'd love to see some posters that are more knowledgeable than myself around data analysis giving their view of the findings.

https://www.dvaa.com.au/the-partner-abuse-state-of-knowledge-project/

Just looking at the Mother’s Day threads gives a lot of anecdata about how men see their partners and wives.

The bar for behaviour and expectations is set miserably low. It’s no wonder more and more women are choosing single lives.

No offence, but I'm not sure that some anecdata about Mother's Day really counteracts women seemingly perpetrating more DV than men.

Are these self reported studies?

Lots of men claim their dps abuse them when infact their dps are the one being abused.

And, as we know, men kill women and men kill men at far far far higher rates than women killing men. Being killed vs say verbal abuse - a no brainer where resources or concern needs to be aimed.

Some men might hate women but some women take some amount of shite off them and do fuck all about it

Both need to take responsibility for themselves

Women may or may not perpetrate more dv than men.

There are a number of problems with trying to collect data on this, the obvious one being that people tend to lie.

Men might lie that they are not subject to do to protect their masculinity. Women might lie that they are not subject to dv because it is shameful,

So the fact that your studies are peer reviewed is important, but it doesn't mean they show the truth. Peer review is not the same as right.

So then you wind up with well what is the data that cannot be disputed?

And that is deaths. You can count those and they tend to be investigated so you have a reasonable idea whether they are dv related.

And domestic homicide is largely a male crime.
domestichomicide-halt.co.uk/about/

Going down the ladder from deaths, you can count injuries presented at hospital/for medical attention. This is more complex as again people lie so you cannot be really sure of your data.

Personally I would argue that preventing homicide is important and that efforts should be made to reduce it. It is reasonable to target those efforts at males.

It always amazes me that when people say but men are victims too - they aren't talking about men killing men in relationships. Do deaths not count if the man is gay? Out of all the men killed last year in dv relationships only one was killed by a female. Why are men not outraged by their fellow man being killed when it's another man doing the killing.

I do think that some men experience abuse, I don't think all women are blameless. But I'm more concerned about the death rate. Men kill women and men kill men. If that could be solved then abuse that doesn't kill could have more attention and resources put to it whatever the sex of the perpetrator.

Yes, I agree that things like 'nagging' (sometimes counted as domestic abuse) aren't on the same page as homicide. But I still feel that with 1700 studies this is just too much data to be dismissed.

Interestingly, a poster on another thread cited a fairly recent study where they'd found that asking women if they'd ever assaulted their partner found a higher rate of female DV than when they asked the men if they'd ever been assaulted. I can only assume that the men didn't want to be seen as 'weak' and that most of these instances weren't reported (it's unlikely that men would report assaults that they won't even admit occurred).

I have no reason to disbelieve these women like I would it if was men pointing the finger. Admitting you've committed DV isn't a good look so I can't see why women would lie about it.

My general suspicions are that both sexes commit roughly similar amounts of DV but women get hurt much more often due to the sheer strength of men. In terms of other violence like homicide and fighting men are obviously far ahead, as one would expect given that they've evolved to fight for resources like most male mammals.

On a side note, one thing that really bugs me is when women say "oh, but it's not the same because men aren't scared of women." I've seen it quite a few times on here and it even popped up on pt1 of this thread. Of course men are scared of being punched/bitten/face scratched/kicked in the balls/etc. And often they know they'll be seen as the abuser if they retaliate or may lose contact with their kids etc.

I knew a case like the above in real life. She'd assault him with things like rolling pins and when he finally fought back and pushed her over (she was blocking the door with a bread knife) she reported him and managed to get him a conviction for assault despite the fact she'd assaulted him literally dozens of times - the police bought it hook line and sinker. I know he was telling the truth as I'd seen her assault him with my own eyes numerous times. Once on a night out when she kept punching him while he didn't fight back. People were laughing and filming on their phones. Thankfully the next boyfriend got her arrested and charged.

Yes, self reported studies are never going to be 100% as trustworthy as criminal investigations in terms of irrefutable facts, but when you have as many as 1700 I do believe you can start to make a pretty intelligent guess as to what the reality is. Like, if thousands of people self report having been bitten by a particular dog breed then there's probably something in it IMO.

Why are men not outraged by their fellow man being killed when it's another man doing the killing.

Because it's a story as old as time. I think men only focus on female violence in retaliation tbh. Like, if things went south with Russia or another country tomorrow it'd be the men that were expected to step up and fight. They mostly seem to accept their role as defenders.

Somebody famously said "people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf" and it's kinda true tbh.

I am surprised you haven’t received more traffic of your post. I didn’t participate in the last thread, but followed it, and I noticed there you didn’t really get any in-depth counters to your argument.

I guess I’m hoping to bump this for you as you’ve made some really strong points that are worth unpicking. Especially your own experience of witnessing female violence against men and other women recording it. I have seen that myself, it all seems like ‘a bit of laugh’ from the woman’s perspective, but I’ve always wondered, why do some women do this, if all men are truly capable of violence?

I think it is difficult to listen to because people only want to talk about DV against men when we are talking about DV against women. It’s only really to silence women and it shouldn’t be the case - it’s own only thing.

It’s like that graph I saw of when most men Google “when is international men’s day?” The answer is on international women’s day.

To get anywhere on any of this we really need to start focusing on men’s mental health and we can’t do this for them. It’s really within the realms of professional help which is really difficult to get on the NHS. I don’t know what the answer is but I know it’s not brining up your problems as a gotcha-counterpoint to women’s. What we really need to listen to the men on how this effects them because we don’t know what it’s like to not be able to talk about feelings the same. We will never have our masculinity challenged. I for one welcome the menfolk to come here and tell us because we do care and we WILL support them.

The page you linked to is an MRA organisation posing as a domestic violence service. I really wouldn't believe anything they put out.

1700 self reported studies is not enough.

No amount of self reported studies would be enough,

There are thousands of people who believe they have seen UFOs, thousands who believe they have seen miracles.

When researchers want data on something, self reported data is the weakest kind of evidence there is.

Self reported data tells us that there are virtually no alcoholics.

Your data is dodgy.

That's why no- one is engaging.

Mumsnet is a forum for women to say how much they hate men, but it is important to remember that men started the hating and established the Patriarchy to institutionalise that hatred.
Long live the hatred of women so we may hate men in return.

I'd more than happily go in depth about my ex and the abuse I suffered, while doing nothing wrong myself.
Testament to that is the fact I'm now happily married (to someone else...!) and when investigating the police didn't blame me for anything, despite her endless lies about what I had supposedly done, all of which was fabrication.

Women are not innocent of DV, it happens - and to shrug it off and victim blame is rather poor IMO.

That's like saying just because flying is the safest way of travelling, should we just forget about aeroplane safety and focus 100% of our efforts into safety on the roads? No, because that'd be silly.
Almost as silly as blaming all men for DV even when it's committed against men by women.

Yes, a great idea - let's perpetuate hate on both sides to absolutely no end.
While we're at it, should black people be perpetually angry at every white person about slavery, despite it being long eradicated?

There comes a point when you have to realise that bottling up hate against a party who don't actually believe what their ancestors did is more harmful to you than them.

To wish any party would continue hating another is ridiculous.

I agree it is ridiculous, but sadly we are onto thread 2 of men hate women.

Tbf, it wasn't only women recording it. We were queueing to get into a bar so there were loads of onlookers.

Reading back my posts I hope people don't think I'm an MRA/cool girl or whatever the term is. I'm actually very serious about women's rights too and do agree with a lot of what feminists talk about, especially around balancing motherhood and working etc, but I don't like these pile on threads where people use selectively picked data to bash a particular demographic. They often don't seem to actually be trying to solve anything so much as just have a bash.

If anything I'm just trying to provide a counterpoint argument as I think there defo is one and there is lots of very relevant and surprising data which just seems to get ignored in favour of the usual discourse.

But they were peer reviewed studies.

Let's be honest, if these were 1700 peer reviewed studies condemning men people probably wouldn't be questioning them.

If you don't believe me let's look at some of the most commonly quoted studies on here...

We often hear about the '1/3 of men would rape if they could get away with it' study. I googled this study myself and found that it was conducted from a very small sample size - 73 participants in contrast to some of the ones I've linked which had scope like 500,000 participants, 32 nations, etc.

It was also only conducted on students from one college and they were all youths. I also read in another article that they were offered course credits for participating so it was suggested that many only took part for the credits and gave silly answers for shits and giggles.

Yet none of this is ever mentioned. It's literally presented as '1/3 of men would rape if they could get away with it'.

The other very commonly quoted study is the '1 in 5 college girls have been raped' study. The actual authors stated a disclaimer that 'it probably shouldn't be taken as absolute fact' (I'm paraphrasing as can't remember the exact phrasing but that was absolutely their message). And yet posters still continued to present it as absolute truth.

I think that part of the issue with the study was that the authors admitted that 'many of the girls probably wouldn't agree they were raped'. Now of course it is absolutely the case that rapes do occur where the victim doesn't see it as rape due to a poor understanding of consent - I've seen threads on here asking 'was I raped?' and often it seems they were. But in this case they asked something like "have you ever had sex and later regretted it?" and then made the jump to classing it as 'unwanted sexual intercourse' or something, which was interpreted as rape.

So, I think it's not a stretch to say that people can be very selective with how they interpret the data depending on whether they like the results or not.

The problem is that your argument already been done in previous thread.

Men even see CMS as financial control. Trendy parent alienation, that was for far too long seen as female abuse, is another tool of male abuse on women and children.

If you are interested, there is some articles and interviews with male psychiatrists and psychologists about how men feel they were abused by their ex partners but well it is just it - a feeling.

We were also talking, and you came to agreeing, that extreme psychical violence is end of the spectrum but there is plenty of other forms of dominance and control and it all starts when a family learns what sex the foetus is.
And I am not saying it is done on purpose, no that is the problem with all forms of political control it is reproduce via culture and societal norms somehow beyond our heads because we all like being part of a group.

Oh please. 🤣 You think an MRA site would really be able to find 1700 studies from other sources that support their MO? The extent of their 'campaigning' usually extends to standing on a roof in a batman costume waving a banner. 😂😂😂

I've just had a deeper look at the page as tbh I'd not really looked at it before - I'd seen the metastudy referenced on here in a previous thread and it lead me to that page.

Most of the contributors are university researchers.

I'm interested to read any studies on the topic as I think far too often people use anecdata. I'm 100% open minded and prepared to admit I was wrong should I read overwhelming evidence suggesting this to be the case.

But from what I've read thus far the reality appears to be much more complex than what is usually presented.

I said I believed that men need to be careful when attempting to 'challenge' other men's behavior, especially when the perpetrator is of a violent nature or drunk. I also stated my belief that using the categorisation of male/female is sometimes less appropriate in my eyes than criminal/non criminal.

Men are either too dangerous to challenge - even by other men - or your categorisation concept is flawed.