Terrible education system

[Onand]

There appears to be a few threads on the joys (lol) of teaching and it’s got me thinking about the UK state education provision.

The state of the UK education system for the vast majority (not private or grammar schools) makes you wonder if it’s terrible by design, or underinvested deliberately. Who would want millions of academically engaged and culturally enriched students who are then impossible to bamboozle and confuse with their ‘politics’.

It makes you wonder if that’s the reason education is so poorly funded and the curriculum so cumbersome and outdated. Teach them just enough to get by but not enough to go beyond unless they are naturally curious and gifted….

You’re starting into conspiracy theory territory there.

Our school is absolutely brilliant so I think it’s just depends where you are and how much the senior management and teachers care. It’s ridiculous to speculate on a conspiracy!

I honestly don't think it's had that much thought put in to it. That's the problem.
As an ex teacher, for me it's the perfect storm of the Sec of State for Education always being a lawyer or anything other than a teacher, combined with a government full of people that wouldn't dream of using the state system for their children and a lack of money being put into it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Assuming there is a grand plan which there isn’t, that would be a shit one as you would end up with no workforce to pay taxes you can cream off.

I am very concerned though, it seems like at least a fifth of the workforce will be missing in future years and on benefits because of various behavioural conditions that render them unable to keep a job.

I agree that politicians don't want independent thinkers able to critically analyse anything and that the Tories have systematically underfunded education, brought in an awful curriculum and demonised teachers so that they can blame all the failings of the education system on teachers.

Or is it a number of things?

Is it that school is now overwhelming? Why does every DC need to be clued up on complicated Science subjects at 14? Why does my DC13 need to know about Greece Civilisations right now? Wouldn't lessons on something else be more beneficial? Why not just make it more basic and practical until 6th Form when you can choose? Why do they need 3 lessons a week on LGBTQXYZ? Why does every child need to do 4 extra clubs at school, then hobbies after school? Why are DC playing rugby, football, cricket, basketball, hockey, karate and something else? Why not stream it all down a bit, focus, and actually teach them things of use, rather than brainwash them into thinking a certain way.

It all seems Jack of all trades, master of none.

I'm a secondary school teacher in a challenging area/school. The government can influence the curriculum to an extent but we actually have a lot of choice over what gets taught and how.

The history curriculum in my school for example looks very different to the school down the road etc. I can assure you teachers are professionals who teach our kids to the best of our ability to make progress and maximise their life chances. We teach them to think critically (a skill needed in pretty much every subject) and certainly don't settle for just enough to get by.

I work in a state school and it is mostly brilliant. The curriculum is always to date and we put a huge amount of effort into lessons.

Our biggest issue is behaviour, most of which is down to parents who cannot be bothered to introduce boundaries, rules and discipline to their children.

It is these same parents that moan when their children are sent home or regularly suspended from school due to poor behaviour.

Schools have clear and simple rules. Either tell your children to follow them, find a school that doesn't have any rules, or home educate your children if you cannot support the school rules.

If all parents supported the school and helped enforce the rules, and took an interest in their child's education, then most schools would be amazing.

Sadly that's not the case.

No. The problems are due to incompetence and ideology rather than any kind of strategic design. Inept but overconfident ministers who don't really care about ordinary people rather than grand masterminds scheming to keep the masses under control.

Some state schools are excellent regardless, and despite the extremely difficult circumstances in which they're operating, they bend over backwards to engage and enrich their students. The incredible hard work and dedication that many teachers and headteachers invest in order to compensate for the challenging context deserves to be acknowledged.

In many ways the U.K. state system does a good job.

The vast, vast majority of children leave state education able to read, write and do basic maths.

This is not a trivial achievement - there are many many countries that cannot say the same.

www.datapandas.org/ranking/literacy-rate-by-country

Again, looking up from that, in the 1960s my mother went to vocational school after primary. She was never taught any science at all, and never taught a foreign language.

The U.K. state system currently means that everyone is taught science, and a foreign language, and humanities.

I'm not going to disagree that there are major problems with many aspects of it, but the way the system is set up does mean that everyone has access to the opportunity to learn these things.

In many countries - Germany, Singapore, etc etc children at secondary level are not given these opportunities as they have a split secondary system - so your child either goes to the grammar, the technical school or the vocational school (effectively the secondary modern).

What UK education system? Education is devolved and the systems in Wales and Scotland are very different to England’s.

But their achivements are despite the system not because of it. It shouldn't demand such hard work to educate children.

If you really think private schools and grammar schools are all so wonderful, think how wonderful the education system would be for everyone if they were both abolished.

...although tbf there's been a bit in the news lately about how Scotland and Wales are quite a bit behind England in results. (NI, which you don't mention, is ahead.)

That's what-ifery because it will never happen. Laying the blame at the door of grammar + private deflects from blaming the government who are ultimately responsible (plus parents).

I don't think it's conspiracy. I think it's an accumulation of years of neglect, which is left until each time it gets near a tipping point, then Something Is Done, which dupes people into thinking it's fine (for there usually is an improvement for awhile). Then it dwindles.

It's rather like that across branches of government - a giant plate spinning act, where all you can do is fend off breakages.

That's why I hope private alternatives continue to exist (OK, things like Defence will have to find other ways to avoid being stuffed as there is no comparator). Because then it's harder to hide how things can be different

Oh, I completely agree. It is not sustainable to expect teachers and headteachers to carry on overcompensating to the extent that many of them currently do. That goes without saying.

Government funding needs to increase so that schools are resourced properly. Teachers need to be better supported so that they stop leaving the profession in their droves. The inspection regime needs a complete overhaul. Support for SEN children needs to be dramatically improved etc etc.

My point was simply that it isn't fair to suggest that all state schools are rubbish as a result of the government's incompetence, because that would be dismissive of the incredible lengths that many teachers are going to in order to minimise the impact of that incompetence on pupils. Frequently to their own detriment.

We left another country to return to the UK specifically for a British state education for our children. In the other country, there was no standard curriculum, and an expectation of one SAHP (lunch would be at home).

I like the UK system(s) which give a lot of freedom of choice and develop good thinkers. I don’t think it’s a co-incidence that in the banks I used to work in while in the other country, a lot of the most efficient and innovative work was delivered by UK immigrants, with the locals being very good at operationalising and administrating those innovations.

I wish the UK was better at funding education and healthcare and infrastructure.

Feels like the UK has such an allergic reaction to socialism that it feels actively compelled to shit on any socialised resources and services.

Abolished may never happen, but reducing it by 50% isn't so very far fetched and would make a big difference.

@Onand if your theory was true then the school leaving age would still be 14. Or even 12 like it used to be.

Abolished may never happen, but reducing it by 50% isn't so very far fetched and would make a big difference.

LewishamMum why would it make a big difference?

The only impact it would have is to drive up house prices near good state schools. You think private/grammar parents would send their DC to local failing schools or plough any of their own money into those schools?
Ambitious parents would just move house to ensure their DC went to the best state schools. They would pay for even more private tutoring than happens now etc.
I would be able to go part time and spend the extra time on facilitating more extra curricular activities.

You’re not comparing like with like though. The new Donaldson curriculum is completely different to England’s subject based approach.

It does make you wonder though. Surely an underfunded education system should be the last thing any government wants or delivers regardless of the economic situation. It should be a priority and yet it just isn’t. Failing millions of children isn’t conspiracy, it’s fact.

Let me tell you what my dad told me few times, about any education system: Sweetheart, the teacher has time only to open the door to you and advise you where to read from. Your study is your responsibility and ALWAYS DO THE HOMEWORK.