Terrible education system

[Onand]

There appears to be a few threads on the joys (lol) of teaching and it’s got me thinking about the UK state education provision.

The state of the UK education system for the vast majority (not private or grammar schools) makes you wonder if it’s terrible by design, or underinvested deliberately. Who would want millions of academically engaged and culturally enriched students who are then impossible to bamboozle and confuse with their ‘politics’.

It makes you wonder if that’s the reason education is so poorly funded and the curriculum so cumbersome and outdated. Teach them just enough to get by but not enough to go beyond unless they are naturally curious and gifted….

I don’t doubt there are brilliant schools across the country and you’re right it’s all down to the teachers and SLT to live and deliver that ethos. But I’m sure if all schools had robust funding, a better curriculum and the best resources available then this would be more the majority and not the minority. A great education system that works for the majority is possible but it doesn’t seem to ever happen or be a priority.

Parents should be asking why is that? Why does my child attend a badly funded inadequate school with mediocre provisions in a first world nation.

Someone somewhere who could change this, doesn’t.

100% 👆🏼

“A great education system that works for the majority is possible but it doesn’t seem to ever happen or be a priority.”

and also:

A great public transport system that works for the majority is possible but it doesn’t seem to ever happen or be a priority.

and furthermore:

A great healthcare system that works for the majority is possible but it doesn’t seem to ever happen or be a priority.

None of these things are “nice-to-have”, we should have them all.

Underfunded

But they don't want the plebs to socialise... hence the death of social clubs, community hubs, churches, pubs etc

Perhaps. Perhaps not. 14 year old school leavers would see a huge increase in petty crime so there’s a reason that would never happen.

If education was an absolute genuine priority then you’d see education budgets through the roof and classes of 14 instead of 28, you’d see teachers being paid far more with a less burdensome curriculum, schools would be clean engaging spaces with excellent equipment. The next generations could be so brilliantly well prepared and yet they aren’t.

I think part of the issue is that education is a long term investment, and politicians are typically motivated by short term electoral cycles.

@Onand but when the leaving age was 12/13/14 children went straight into work. It was quite unusual for teens to just be roaming the streets.
They received enough education to read and write plus basic maths so they could get jobs in factories, shops or service.
If the government wanted that type of society (ie keeping the lower classes in their place - which is essentially what you suggest they are doing by underfunding schools) then they would lower the leaving age back down.
So your theory doesn't work.

The curriculum is down to Gove who was an ideologue who genuinely thought that the revised curriculum was an improvement that would drive up standards. He benefited from that type of education and wanted all children to as well, including those from disadvantaged backgrounds. He didn’t want to damn them with a culture of low expectations.

Obviously we are now dealing with the fallout as he was rather misguided however it wasn’t some sort of plot to make kids thicker.

The underfunding again is just Tory policy regarding the public sector, turbo-charged by austerity. But it turns out that not investing in the public sector is a false economy which is coming back to bite them as the impact becomes clear.

That was great when we had mines, factories and mills but those days are long gone. It wouldn’t set us apart from the third world to have 14 year olds in the workforce.

My point isn’t about keeping lower classes in their place it’s asking why do we deliberately fail young people, when it is more than possible to have an enriched engaged motivated outcome. The reluctance to change the education system baffles me and I’m sure it does others too.

Critical thinking as a taught, progressive skill was dropped at the start of this Tory rule. In previous Tory governments investment and skilled jobs were lost completely, huge communities in UK were shut down, drugs funneled in instead of jobs and self respect. There's a pattern.

Education is a long term investment where as politicians are motivated by policy that will win them elections (short term). They like investing in things that can be turned into metrics eg percentage of kids who get grade 5+ at GCSE and are less motivated to change things because their children and their donors children are privately educated so immune to the effects of the lack of investment.

I don’t think that they are keeping kids unaware on purpose but schools are free childcare for parents so that they can go to work, pay tax and make profit for the sorts of people who will donate to political parties.

Problems in schools is also linked to the lack of investment in the police and social services. It is easier for politicians to blame teachers and schools rather than billions being siphoned to their mates instead.

100% what Ratatouille says.

@Onand but why would the government deliberately "waste" money if they didn't want the masses educated?
They wouldn't insist on the ridiculously full curriculum and high amount of exams etc if they didn't want a well educated society?
Yes schools are underfunded. It's not a great situation. But they wouldn't fund schools to purposely "fail" children - they just wouldn't fund them at all (ie allow children to leave school earlier).

A system that allows over 30% of children to not achieve Grade 4+ in maths and English doesn't seem designed to have a well educated population!

@Onand to be honest in parts of the country where the main industry is warehouses/logistics, care work and retail they often struggle for staff.
I know a lot of 14/15 year olds who would be quite happy to leave school and work in that environment.
So why doesn't the government let them? If your theory of deliberately underfunding schools is true?

@Onand in the 1850s the (heated) argument against state funded universal education was that it would give the masses ideas above their station and they would be more politically aware. And where would that leave the country?

I don't really think that today there's a deliberate sub text to under educate our children. Instead the British way of amateurism and an unfortunate tendency to fix what isn't broken rather than fixing what doesn't work has led to the present mish mash. Add in chronic underfunding and an ego or two and here we are.

I spent a whole teaching career going from one set of hoops to the next, often at the whim of some education secretary whose knowledge was based on the fact he or she had been to school.

The Education brief is a stepping stone for politicians rather than a priority. Make a splash with a 'new idea' then move on.

Also, my dc have gone to fantastic state schools; but we moved to get close to them - I could argue that this is as ethically dubious as paying for private education. But most of us do what we feel we have to for our kids.

School choice by house purchase isn't a great system.

@twistyizzy that's so true. It's sad.
The curriculum is so full that those who need extra help with the basics get left behind.
I wouldn't say it's underfunding. It the insistence on everyone having to take so many subjects (ie 8/9/10 GCSEs).
Some children it would be better if they could just focus on the basics (reading, writing, maths).

Yeah there is a secret bunker in Manchester where they hold hidden meetings with funny handshakes to arrange this called operation delusional

Problems in schools is also linked to the lack of investment in the police and social services. It is easier for politicians to blame teachers and schools rather than billions being siphoned to their mates instead

And health. It’s taken years to get my Dads hearing problems acknowledge, diagnosed and treated - she is now, are 13 finally getting a hearing aid. Her ability to access education has been significantly limited by her hearing impairment. No matter how good the school is, if she can’t hear she won’t be able to learn to her potential.

Countries like Germany and Singapore and others that use this approach are rated as having some of the best educational outcomes in the world. There are lots of people who aren't interested in/don't have the ability to do the more academic subjects but they are forced to do them which contributes to problems with behaviour/attendance. The current system doesn't work for a significant number of children but there is no alternative for them.

drugs funneled in instead of jobs and self respect. There's a pattern.

PTSDbarbiegirl do you think if Labour win the next election there will be no more drugs funnelled in?

Agreed. Instead of GCSEs being mandatory there should be a choice at 14 of either vocational routes or academic routes. Those who choose vocational go on to Apprenticeships and achieve vocational qualifications which are held in the same esteem as GCSEs but are based on practical skills plus functional maths and English. There should still be a route into higher education through the vocational options (same as degree Apprenticeships now) but the kids who choose the vocational route at 14 aren't jammed into classrooms for hours every day being forced to do subjects they have zero interest in. A carousel of meaningful work placements could cement skills and give kids a chance to work out where their future career aims lie.
Obviously the drawback to this is the funding and I know it will never happen but I do think it would go a long way to addressing many of the issues in the education system today, especially around behaviour and engagement.

In Germany, the teachers decide if your child goes to a grammar, technical or vocational school.

The primary your child attends writes a letter of recommendation stating which school your child is suited for.

There is a lot of evidence that primary schools see middle and upper class children as grammar school material. Lower class children tend to be pushed in the technical or vocational school direction.

You can appeal, and some grammars interview.

Personally that's not a system I would want to see introduced here.

I get the issues but the fundamental truth is that staying on at school past 14 and studying 8+ subjects for GCSE just doesn't suit many, many DC. Again, the 30%+ who leave school at 16 without maths + English proves this. We need a suitable alternative.

Sadly, not all parents are invested in their children's education. I met friends who are still teaching for lunch last weekend.
I was shocked to hear that at recent parents' evening only 21% of pupils had a parent or carer attend.